/l/ - The Lounge

Non board-specific discussion

[Make a Post]
[X]





Self-sufficiency General Nanonymous No.12337 [D][U][F][S][L][A][C] >>12343 >>12347 >>12906
File: a8a9579bdf3c127c0174a746ffc76a2aea46260a8b0d6a0aa2ff1ee438d04ad5.svg (dl) (9.28 KiB)

So, today i want to make an actually useful thread, the objective of this thread is to reach a level close to self-sufficiency, to reach as close as possible this status a number of human needs to be satisfied, i will list the primary human needs according to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, since my knowledge is limited i propose we unite all the nanochan autism to reach self-sufficiency.

Physiological needs:
>Water(needs to be clean and free of harmul bacteria)
>Food(needs to be nutricious, a constant supply is better)
>Clothes(specify for multiple seasons, note this includes shoes)
>Shelter(needs to provide for warmth and to be resistant to storms etc)

Safety needs:
>Medicine(better if it can be found in the wild, but artificial medicine that can be made at home is also fine)
>Weapons(in case weapon of choice needs ammunition specify how to make them too)

Solving these should be enough, please discuss how to solve each in an ordered manner(in a list) and since the solution can be different with different variables, also specify what biomes your solution applies to(for example temperate, arid, etc), how many people it can sustain(for example only an individual, an entire family, etc) and if your solution applies to particular conditions(for example only in a city, only on an insland, etc), you are free to discuss Social needs, Self-esteem needs and Self-actualization needs, but ONLY after you solved Physiological and Safety needs, cause priorities.

Nanonymous No.12340 [D]

Good thread. I'll contribute to it later OP, just need some sleep.

Nanonymous No.12343 [D] >>12906

>>12337

You would require enough money to purchase at least a 100 square metre land in your country. Preferably the type that is classified as farm land and is therefore much cheaper.

There you could build a wooden shack and then hire a farmer to create a small field for crops on your land. You would grow exclusively potatoes if your land was too small for anything else.

You would also require at least 10 average wages in savings. For electricity it would be wise to live near a stream of water in order to make a small water wheel that would charge the accumulator which would power up the light source in your cabin.

Nanonymous No.12347 [D][U][F] >>12394 >>12482 >>12553 >>12906 >>12907 >>13006
File: 29776802a488980919d34b2b460b4ae70b1fd64c9d58a911ebd2d170b59eabf5.jpg (dl) (97.09 KiB)

>>12337
ITT: Self-sufficiency Unabomber edition.

>Food
See this thread on /g/:
https://nanochanqwrwtmamtnhkfwbbcducc4i62ciss4byo6f3an5qdkhjngid.onion/g/4712.html#post4715

Arthrospira doesn't have all nutrients, though. Choline, D3, B12, iodine and zinc are very important and arthrospira doesn't produce those. The algae Nori has iodine/B12 and Maitake mushroom seems to produce a kind of vit.D together with other nutrients. I don't know if cultivating those and put in a elemental liquid diet would be enough.
One possible solution would be to genetically modify Arthrospira. There's a company called Lumen Bioscience already doing it.

Even if that was solved, the issue would become how to get the nutrients.
So here is the idea most people reject: it might be possible to use container-based sanitation to get your own poop and use as nutrient (through compost tea). This has some health issues in case bacteria grows, but this would be very efficient. Throughout history many countries did that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil

The compost would also generate CO2, and Arthrospira needs it to grow too.

>Shelter
Non ironically, I think the idea of underground shelter is the best for efficiency. The soil around not only protects against strong winds, but also you have better termal insulation ("earth tubes" can be used to control temperature). During daylight, the lights can come through sun using "solar tubes" (basically a tube with mirrors inside). During night, this neat GravityLight could be used when necessary, so you don't waste the solar energy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GravityLight

To get energy, solar panels could be used on the outside.
The energy from the panels could power a low-energy computer, such as a ODROID-C1 using AEMLION:
https://github.com/jrsikken/AEMLION

If you manage to get satellite internet, this will be enough to watch anime and read stuff.
About air quality: Arthrospira produces O2 as byproduct and the solar panels could pump air through HEPA filters.

>Water
If the shelter is close to the sea, salt water could be filtered using reverse osmosis. I don't think collection from rain would be enough.
This same water can be used for baths. For oral higiene a electric toothbrush solves most of the dental issues (such as "Rotadent"). About toilet paper: just take a bath.
To make higiene easy, remove your hairs. Hair is useless and takes more resources to clean.

>Clothes
Underwear is useless these days.
Mostly a piece of cloth just to keep you warm is necessary.

>medicine
You're basically fucked here. Besides some simple anti-inflamatory drugs, everything else needs lab equipment.
>Weapons
Just lock yourself up.

Nanonymous No.12362 [D][U][F]
File: c729c251d3609a80c41a0aeade692b5b8cf205bc2d4de2a71258610809bc81ee.jpg (dl) (17.18 KiB)

Bump.

Nanonymous No.12394 [D] >>12482 >>12553 >>12939

>>12347
>Arthrospira doesn't have all nutrients
Fermenting with Lactobacillus plantarum could be the answer:
>total phenolic content did increase significantly after fermentation, by 79% and 320% respectively.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10811-018-1602-3

>After 36 h fermentation, TPC was enhanced by 112%, FRAP by 85% and ORAC by 36%. After 24 h, the DPPH radical scavenging capacity increased 60%, while the free methionine content increased by 94%, after 72 h.
https://www.mdpi.com/2311-5637/5/1/28/htm

Nanonymous No.12453 [D]

I expected more discussions in this thread. A shame it died.

Nanonymous No.12471 [D][U][F]
File: fe05229913079c99088a87b5c0685a98f0fb0c15ec182ac1ebd3b83f7ac55dc6.jpg (dl) (42.54 KiB)

Ok I'm keeping Arachis hypogaea because they are healthy and useful. In an apocalypse it'll be those with dysfunctional immune systems going zombie and dicking in peoples brains anyway. Anaphylaxis is my number one defense.

Nanonymous No.12482 [D]

>>12347
>Arthrospira produces O2 as byproduct
Need to be careful. The air needs nitrogen too, not just oxygen. Also, oxygen in high concentration is toxic and highly inflamable. Releasing a bit to make the air have better quality wouldn't hurt.
>>12394
Fermentation produces CO2 as byproduct. This could be recycled on the bioreactor. Having a closed loop would be the best for efficiency.

Nanonymous No.12553 [D][U][F] >>12555 >>12556 >>13006
File: a9030b7aefd0c5bd218d2f2a08ead727ac99eea5ab22b55bff5516da60b65052.jpg (dl) (240.10 KiB)

>>12347
>Nori has iodine/B12 and Maitake mushroom
Agaricus brasiliensis might be better. See nutritional table from Paul Stamets here:
https://fungi.com/blogs/articles/the-nutritional-properties-of-mushrooms

It has higher content of nearly everything. Also, I've found some studies saying A. platensis produces B12. Not sure all strains does.

>This has some health issues in case bacteria grows
Bacteria will grow anyway. The issue is if it's something bad, such as E. coli.
If you leave the "Humanure" for months decomposing, the 'competitive race' for reproduction between bacteria/fungi will most probably kill the organisms that might be bad for health.
>>12394
Not just the fermentation, the compost will also release CO2. These could be reused for the A. platensis.
The same compost can be used to grow the mushroom (ultra-violet light is needed for vitamin D formation).
There might be some bacteria to increase the rate of decomposition of the compost, making it feasiable to use. I'll search for that.

Nanonymous No.12555 [D] >>12556

>>12553
Another idea (probably more efficient) would be to do a submerged culture of A. brasiliensis and then expose to UV using UVB lamps:
https://fungi.com/blogs/articles/place-mushrooms-in-sunlight-to-get-your-vitamin-d

I don't know if the levels of choline will be the same doing this, though.

Nanonymous No.12556 [D]

>>12553
>>12555
Mushroom needs heat treatment before consumption (use sci-hub.tw to download, if you want to read):
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814605006540

Nanonymous No.12557 [D]

You could also do soap using spirulina oil and lye (sodium hydroxide). You need a Soxhlet extractor and methanol:
https://scholar.cu.edu.eg/?q=hassanelshimi/files/research_paper_3.pdf

Nanonymous No.12727 [D]

So, Olimex has this open hardware sensor to measure CO2 levels, temperature, etc. Might be useful:
https://www.olimex.com/Products/Modules/Sensors/MOD-ENV/open-source-hardware

Nanonymous No.12875 [D] >>12877 >>12887

Would self-sufficiency infographics be useful to the thread?

Nanonymous No.12877 [D]

>>12875
Drop all you have...

Nanonymous No.12887 [D][U][F] >>12898
File: 09e64e14833fcf262b6791a9ec790e13e7b76d605a2e4de63e23ce7b715ff90e.jpg (dl) (345.12 KiB)

>>12875
They're kind of scattered but I'll try

Nanonymous No.12888 [D][U][F] >>12898 >>12906
File: a273dcaa67986e541d71d4248a1232a1e9d7c40b2908d6a62f6ee79e4b4da481.png (dl) (488.67 KiB)



Nanonymous No.12889 [D][U][F] >>12898 >>12906
File: fbd4589e383b3d89577b70b234ac96582294de114a0206d5f41ae446c1518538.jpg (dl) (64.40 KiB)



Nanonymous No.12890 [D][U][F] >>12906
File: 9f98dd59a529d5c4f08152ce4f013f93b59150c6c693aa0af24efb5121af00ba.jpg (dl) (672.85 KiB)



Nanonymous No.12891 [D][U][F] >>12898 >>12906
File: 890fef8a4ad92f1dd77f4e826a380d8b31ceda10a831dc4e41b735c86a8a2f04.jpg (dl) (957.58 KiB)



Nanonymous No.12892 [D][U][F] >>12898 >>12900 >>12906
File: 2b57cdf0c1f3c667f33b60423ea68ad1bc721429fd6176ead4e85b273be6c67b.jpg (dl) (128.29 KiB)

Low res. I don't remember if I tried rev. image searching this one (probably not)

Nanonymous No.12893 [D][U][F]
File: f1d922036bdad25cc77306e51451c6a6af10b685d80d91692e171ee69ae31906.jpg (dl) (206.50 KiB)



Nanonymous No.12894 [D][U][F]
File: 4a45b71ad997da096d33c6757417c166afca76b0375f66963a50d3512ab395de.jpg (dl) (135.65 KiB)



Nanonymous No.12895 [D][U][F]
File: e8c295979578363b72f884b626bed693bd2684620ff886da0df8e2a118ff023b.jpg (dl) (78.67 KiB)



Nanonymous No.12896 [D][U][F] >>12898 >>12906
File: fcaa2da3593c6f190b47025cc5f3a10cae4a9ad33c04183681e290f23a1cf82c.jpg (dl) (20.21 KiB)



Would sage even be useful? Regardless, SAGE! No.12897 [D]

Well, that's all she wrote

Nanonymous No.12898 [D] >>12901

Nice infographics, thanks. Some comments:
>>12887
The only efficient method is filtering. Normally reverse osmosis. The others are more for survivalism than self-sufficiency.
I was also reading about rainwater harvesting. Might be more practical, since you don't have to care as much with contaminations.
>>12888
Aquaponics is very nice. But you need fish food to maintain the system so it's not very efficient. Hence why I suggested aeroponics and Arthrospira.
>>12889
A nice way to preserve food is by Freeze drying and puting on vaccum mylar bags with oxigen absorbers. But freeze drying is really expensive. Also, refrigerators consume too much energy, which will increase your reliance on solar panels or other sources of energy.
>>12891
>watch for pests
Aeroponics has less pests without pesticides, uses less water and grows faster...
>>12892
>magically
>>12896
I think the generator is a unnecessary redundancy if you have enough solar panels.

Nanonymous No.12900 [D][U][F] >>12901
File: f4934e266e2203ecdafc8d4d17a2a4fe6bdc5d58d69e3738e41d2ed40b585112.jpg (dl) (620.99 KiB)

>>12892
here it is on the authors website:
https://jerryjamesstone.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Food-That-Magically-Regrows-Itself-1080x3225.jpg

Nanonymous No.12901 [D] >>12906

>>12898
Yes, unfortunately a lot of my infographics tie in with survivalism and living innawoods, so I didn't have the best resources.
>rainwater harvesting
My concerns with that is acidity of the water. Although it may not affect drinkability, I'm worried that it could adversely affect plants and infrastructure (granted, by a small margin but still there).
>generator is unnecessary redundancy if you have enough solar panels
Although it may be redundant, I was always taught to have a backup layer of redundancy. Not to mention that solar panels themselves are expensive and not a very efficient source of energy.
>>12900
Thanks, Nanon!

Nanonymous No.12906 [D][U][F] >>12907 >>12908
File: 97e77266e18ec9ae00168dc379c674805afe4a90001a5f6ea21dd24fb578030c.jpg (dl) (361.44 KiB)

>>12337
Most guys (and, let's face it, we're all guys or "girls" here) are never going to get above the safety tier if they want to truly achieve a self-sufficient life. Women aren't interested in a guy living in the woods with unreliable electricity. You'll be lucky if you have an open-minded family. So, you might have love (for some values of the word) and belonging, but you're probably getting laid a handful of times in your life from then on, tops. The few women who are able and willing to endure the physical hardship and deprivation of "necessities" like attention-whoring on Instagram are probably already paired-up with back-to-the-land Chads, not the utter dildoes that populate this place.
>>12343
>hire a farmer to create a small field for crops on your land
Sounds pricey.
>it would be wise to live near a stream of water in order to make a small water wheel
Not always an option, and there are plenty of streams that are dry at least part of the year. The wind blows everywhere, though. A small, simple wind turbine is probably a more realistic option, if solar is too expensive or you're far, far north (though I'm aware of some Alaskans who are able to generate solar power, at least for ~4 months of the year).
>>12347
>Arthrospira
I hope you have a lab on your rural property that can detect contamination by microcystins, BMAA, etc. Otherwise, enjoy your cirrhosis and liver cancer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirulina_(dietary_supplement)#Quality-related_safety_and_toxicology
Instead of faggy space food/Earth overpopulation food you should consider, y'know, real food. Vegetables and fruits you've gardened/gathered and meat from hunting and small-scale animal husbandry. Where I live, feral pigs are considered a pest and are not subject to bag numbers on hunting. Unlimited bacon.
>Night soil
Great way to spread disease, including parasites. Which has been common in societies that use human shit for fertilizer. See modern North Korea if you want a recent example. But if you want to pay for anti-parasitic drugs several times a year, or just live with parasites in your gut, your muscles, your brain, I mean, go for it.
>underground shelter
Where I live, the water table is so high that most people can't even have a basement. An entire house underground would be a disaster. Also, are you going to dig it out over the course of years by hand, or are you going to pay thousands of dollars for a crew with heavy equipment to come and move the earth for you?
All around, a bad idea for most situations/many climates.
>Just lock yourself up.
Good idea. Delay your cornholing by ten minutes.
>>12888
Goofy. Anyone living a "self-sufficient lifestyle" ever done this?
>>12889
Looks about right.
>>12890
Better if you can mill your own lumber from trees (preferably cedar) on your property, but not a bad infographic.
>>12891
Good infographic.
>>12892
OK infographic. Eventually, you're going to have to learn to propagate some things from seed, but, yeah, not everything grows from seed. Like potatoes. I mean, brilliant suggestion. I guess.
>>12896
So vague as to be useless. Solar panels of what wattage? Batteries of what capacity? Etc.
>>12901
>My concerns with that is acidity of the water.
Does it become more acidic upon sitting? Otherwise, it's the same stuff that's falling from the sky on the plants. Infrastructure might be a concern, though. No idea.
>Not to mention that solar panels themselves are expensive and not a very efficient source of energy.
They're adequate, unless you're trying to run a (((modern household))), with washer, dryer, big-screen TV, gayming rig, central air, electric heat, etc. Use a wood stove for heat, a small window A/C in your small house (if necessary) no microwave, LED lights, propane fridge, propane stove & oven, wash clothes by hand and dry them on a clothesline. Solar will be more than adequate for a manageable price.

Nanonymous No.12907 [D] >>12942

>>12347 (me)
>>12906
So, first of all, everything I wrote here is hypothetical. I haven't tested any of these, it's just ideas floating around to this stage. Criticism is welcome.
>contamination
Photobioreactors are a closed circuit. The only possible contamination would be through the water, which would be treated before going to the reactor. Also, there will be UV-B lights.
>real food
It's not efficient enough. Consumes too much water and doesn't have a full nutrional profile we need (B12 is specially difficult in plants).
>Great way to spread disease, including parasites.
To be fair, in this point you're right, but most of the diseases on "humanure" come from eating other animals. Since the nutrition would come from cyanobacteria/mushrooms this might not be a big problem. Also, humanure gets to high temperatures after some months (up to 60C) and this kills most dangerous organisms. And, as said above, the compost tea for A. platensis grow would pass through UV-B light.
>dig it out over the course of years by hand
Do you seriously think someone would do that or are you trolling?
>a bad idea for most situations/many climates.
Nope, it's not. Underground offers many advantages: easier climate control (waste less energy), less succetibility to natural disasters and better security.

Infographag No.12908 [D] >>12942

>>12906
>Also, are you going to dig it out over the course of years by hand, or are you going to pay thousands of dollars for a crew with heavy equipment to come and move the earth for you?
A good compromise may be to borrow a few diggers from your cousin and assemble a volunteer team. If you have good familial/friendly relationships, it shouldn't be a problem.
Besides, I'm sure the general population of Nanochan is of hardworking and healthy strong men who would love to help chip in their effort for a fellow Nanon.

Nanonymous No.12910 [D][U][F] >>12911
File: 2ec26f3db5783f6833f3df61fea4e5a112c30b6a99cf522684a69d6d9cda3b2b.pdf (dl) (13.63 MiB)



Nanonymous No.12911 [D] >>13021

>>12910
Please post the link to the oficial source. I don't download random pdfs from imageboards...

Nanonymous No.12942 [D][U][F] >>12955
File: 9353229fd8927c6e45525225d53099412ac5df0511f1364e6ca4b1a58a05427d.jpg (dl) (261.22 KiB)

>>12907
>only possible contamination
I think you're underestimating how difficult it would be to maintain an aseptic environment in a nigger-rigged home lab.
>It's not efficient enough.
If it wasn't efficient enough, you wouldn't be here. Agriculture supported not only individuals, but families, villages, and civilizations for 8,000 years. Supplemented by hunting and small-scale animal husbandry, as I said, it's viable for self-sufficiency. Look up the JewTube video about the family that grows 6,500 lbs. of food on a 1/8 acre city lot, for example.
>Consumes too much water
If you live in the desert, maybe.
Protip: Don't live in the desert.
>and doesn't have a full nutrional profile we need (B12 is specially difficult in plants).
I did not suggest a vegan diet.
>Do you seriously think someone would do that
I don't, which is why it's unrealistic unless you have the money to hire a crew with heavy equipment.
>Nope, it's not.
It is.
>easier climate control (waste less energy)
This is potentially the only advantage.
>less succetibility to natural disasters
Depending on the surrounding soil composition and the type of earthquake, an underground house could not only not be better in an earthquake, it could be worse. Being swallowed by the Earth would be a pretty shitty way to die. An underground house might provide some shelter from a tornado, but unless it's totally buried, a tornado could still rip (pull, actually: see Bernoulli's principle) the roof off. Same problem in a hurricane, with the additional likelyhood of flooding from the heavy precipitation that accompanies hurricanes. Flooding is a major threat to underground houses in much of North America. Again, unless you live in a desert.
>better security.
Your security in an underground house won't be significantly better than in an above-ground house, unless you have a single, reinforced point of ingress, like a steel hatch. In which case, enjoy being trapped in your tomb when a tree falls on the hatch. Or being starved out by an adversary who parks his vehicle on top of the hatch. If you want security, get a big dog and a 12 ga. semi-automatic shotgun.
>>12908
Unless you're Mormon or a mudskin, you probably don't have enough relatives to assemble a volunteer team. My cousin doesn't have any "diggers". I suspect most of us here don't.
>good familial/friendly relationships
Definitely describes folks on imageboards, especially this one.
>I'm sure the general population of Nanochan is of hardworking and healthy strong men
You owe me a new pair of sides.

Nanonymous No.12955 [D] >>12956

>>12942
>If it wasn't efficient enough, you wouldn't be here.
Do you know the definition of "self" in "self-sufficiency"? We survived because we could distribute the work force between other people to make huge crops. One individual cannot maintain a nutrient-rich diet just by doing he own cultivation without putting to much effort in it, having stability of crop yield and wasting no electric energy. This is what I meant by "not efficient".
About hunting, the same applies. Sometimes you will not be able to catch animals (because of many variables, such as in winter). What do you do in this case? Starve to death?
>If you live in the desert, maybe.
It is not just about using water. It's about how you treat water. For example, you wouldn't be able to use sea salt water and rains not always come. Also, the winter will decrease the yield or kill all the plants, depending on how severe it is. There's too many variables.

I'm not against large scale agriculture or hunting. I'm just thinking that I would want stability in my nutrition. This is the most difficult thing to achieve in self-sufficiency. By far.
>earthquake
I might be wrong here, but I think underground reduces vibration on the walls, not the opposite as you say. I don't have literature on it, though.
>unless it's totally buried
It is.
>trapped in your tomb when a tree falls
There is ways to prevent this from happening. See military instalations.
>money to hire a crew with heavy equipment
How big do you think this shelter would be, considering only one person would live in it? Very small. I suspect you could even dig yourself in 2-3 months the size of a shipping container.

Nanonymous No.12956 [D][U][F] >>12957
File: 8c6c20244c84cec828c23b4697b69a4a07b0b3389a92fe88eedda8dd086cf36c.jpg (dl) (169.01 KiB)

>>12955
>We survived because we could distribute the work force between other people to make huge crops.
Civilization survived because of multiple people working on a plot of land intended to feed many, many people (potters, weavers, scribes, accountants, priests, kings, etc.). A single person can absolutely feed himself from agriculture + modest hunting and gathering. People did it for thousands of years.
>One individual cannot maintain a nutrient-rich diet just by doing he own cultivation without putting to much effort in it
Incorrect. If you are able to put in the effort to dig your own underground house (more on that in a moment), growing your own food should be ez-pz.
https://tinyhousetalk.com/family-grows-6000-lbs-of-food-on-110th-acre-urban-farm/
6000 lbs. of food on 1/10th of an acre. Do you know how much food 6000 lbs. is (again, that's going to become relevant in a minute)? Do you know how little space 1/10th of an acre is?
>Sometimes you will not be able to catch animals
A "self-sufficient" person in rural North America who can't hunt enough meat to supplement their garden probably doesn't deserve to live.
>(because of many variables, such as in winter)
What is freezing? What is smoking? What is salting? What is canning? You don't stick 1,000 lbs. of moose meat in the fridge and eat it in 5 days before it goes bad. You preserve it. A single moose can feed you for a year if you also have a garden. Or larger numbers of smaller animals like deer, caribou, elk, antelope, hell, even ducks, ptarmigan, squirrels, etc. Depends on where you live.
>There is ways to prevent this from happening. See military instalations.
Yeah, huge, fortified concrete and rebar entryways, multiple routes of egress, miles-long tunnels through solid rock, like at NORAD. You'll be building all of that for your one-person underground house, eh?
>How big do you think this shelter would be, considering only one person would live in it? Very small. I suspect you could even dig yourself in 2-3 months the size of a shipping container.
I suspect most people would be unwilling to live in less than ~500 sq. ft., assuming they had to have their algae lab (assuming your model of food production), bathroom, food preparation area, sleeping area, etc. all in the same place. Let's say 432 square feet, since it makes the following math more convenient. 432 sq. ft. is 48 square yards. Assuming a 9' (3 yd.) ceiling, which you would be able to reach up and touch unless you're a total manlet, your underground house would have a volume of 144 square yards. According to https://www.reference.com/home-garden/much-cubic-yard-dirt-weigh-75fe361d5691a2ec a cubic yard of dirt weighs 2,000 to 2,700 lbs. We'll pick the number that's more generous to you, 2,000, and say a cubic yard of dirt weighs 2,000 lbs. So, in order to dig out your 144 cubic yards of space for a house, you're going to have to move 288,000 lbs. of earth. You estimated 2-3 months to do so. If you do it in 2 months, that's 4,800 lbs of dirt a day. If you do it in 3 months, that's 3,200 lbs of dirt a day. Nigga, are you going to dig 3,200 lbs. of dirt a day, by hand? 4,800 lbs.? Nigga, say yes so I can have the best laugh of 2019, and it's only July.
Let's take the dimensions of a single large shipping container, instead, since you mentioned shipping containers. What's called the 40' standard dry container. That's 12.035m x 2.350m x 2.393m, for 95.96 square metres. That's 114.77 square yards. That's 229,540 lbs. of earth. On a 60 day and 90 day timeline, respectively, that's 3,826 and 2,550 lbs. of dirt a day you need to move just to dig out the cavity for your shelter. Nigga, are you going to move over a ton of dirt a day by hand? Are you going to rent a backhoe for 60-90 days so you can do it yourself? Nigga, say yes, so I can laff @ u.

Nanonymous No.12957 [D] >>12963

>>12956
>multiple people working on a plot of land
Multiple people. That's the point.
>People did it for thousands of years.
In community, yes. But not individuals. Normally individuals dies easily if they are alone. That's one of the reasons we need so much social contact, we evolved that way. But technology cheated on evolution. So let's use it.
>family grows 6000lbs
I never said it was impossible, I said this is not efficient. I'll use the article you linked as a example:
- This is a family working. Not one individual.
- The yield is 6000lbs "per year", this means 226kg per month, divided by four people and 30 days a month this gives less than 1kg/day per person. This might not be enough nutritional profile (protein, mostly), depending on what they are growing
- The only reason they could scale this yield was because they have more people. When you're alone this is more complicated (without using automation that needs electricity)
- They are not "off-the-grid". They use city water (according to their website FAQ) and receive oil from restaurants to use as 'fuel'. Also, they don't produce all their energy with solar panels, only "nearly 3/4 [per] year"
http://urbanhomestead.org/faq/

So, yes, it is possible. But not very efficient. They rely on other services and in case something goes wrong (like winter, other other natural phenomena) they wouldn't be able to maintain themselves. This is not a option if you're alone completely "off-the-grid".
To be fair, they could build a "geodesic dome" to use as greenhouse and also use aeroponics, to decrease the amount of maintainance and water usage. But, still, not very efficient from my point of view.
>[those who can't hunt] probably doesn't deserve to live.
Well, what about diseases or injuries? Or, again, winter?
Also, I don't quite agree with this 'primitivism' as if "this is the natural law that, if you can't hunt, you should be dead". Hunting is very demanding. You need weapons, traps, patience and you'll depend on climate.
>You preserve it.
A winter can take a long time, depending on where you live. Can you "smoke and salt" a Moose for 5 months? I'm honestly asking, because I don't have knowledge about this.
>A single moose can feed you for a year
Hummm... don't know about that. Protein profile on plants are not as good as meat. You will have protein deficiency on the last 4 months of the year. Also, possibly B12.
>You'll be building all of that for your one-person underground house, eh?
Nope. It was a example. You can build small domes around the entry point and also have a simple alternative route in case someone tries to lock you up. The only way someone could really lock you up would be intentionally (criminal act), but this is also true for any kind of house.
>digging
I didn't do the math, but you seem right. In this case, there is (probably) other ways to make it happen.
>Nigga, say yes, so I can laff @ u.
No, I can't. I'll not be your best "laff of the year", 'bruh'.

Nanonymous No.12963 [D][U][F] >>12979
File: 58833157ee22d6eaede0f193098f98be1e28c662567079832a582c30bdd76e5f.jpg (dl) (74.67 KiB)

>>12957
>multiple people working on a plot of land
Nice cherrypicking. Let's finish the thought, huh?
>multiple people working on a plot of land intended to feed many, many people (potters, weavers, scribes, accountants, priests, kings, etc.). A single person can absolutely feed himself from agriculture + modest hunting and gathering.
The level of dishonesty you're engaging in speaks ill of your arguments.
>This is a family working. Not one individual.
It's a family feeding a family. Scale it down to an individual feeding an individual. More disingenuity on your part.
>They are not "off-the-grid". They use city water (according to their website FAQ) and receive oil from restaurants to use as 'fuel'. Also, they don't produce all their energy with solar panels, only "nearly 3/4 [per] year"
Neat-o. How much of their energy requirement goes into food production? The energy they require for their superfluous pursuits (TV, computers, etc.) is of no interest to me, and should be of no interest to a "self-sufficient" individual. Also, nigger, they're in California. Have you ever heard of rain? I'll repeat my protip: Dont live in the desert.
>Well, what about diseases or injuries?
What about them? You'll get sick or get injured eventually living in your underground house eating algae. When you get liver cancer from contaminated spirulina, you have the choice to seek medical care at a hospital (not very self-sufficient!) or sit there and die in a number of months (very self-sufficient!). To take a less dramatic example, what happens the first time you get a bacterial infection? Do you hope you can survive sepsis, or go to the doc for a $15 antibiotic prescription? The latter is, well, not very self-sufficient. Choose wisely, spirulinanon!
>You can build small domes around the entry point and also have a simple alternative route in case someone tries to lock you up.
Uh huh. Domes. lol. Domes. Would totally foil an attacker. 100% security. We're talking Fort Knox here. lol.
DOMES, MOTHAFUCKA!

Nanonymous No.12979 [D] >>13006 >>13049

>>12963
>cherrypicking
>dishonesty
I don't see how the full quote changed anything. This wasn't cherrypicking.
1- I said you can't produce efficiently and alone the enough quantity of food with full nutrient profile using only plants
2- You said humans have being doing it through history and you can 'supplement' from hunted animals
3- I agreed, but pondered they did it in a community, not alone, and that other variables might be on your way, like winter or other natural phenomena

How is that dishonesty? I could accuse you the same way around of Strawman, if you want to use fallacies/biases.
>Scale it down to an individual feeding an individual.
You can't, this is not a linear equation. The capabilities or individuals is not simply added, they are multiplied because of team work. This is the same concept used in "concurrency" while refering to computing.
>The energy they require for their superfluous pursuits
I agree, but they don't provide this information from what I've read.
>The latter is, well, not very self-sufficient.
We were talking about food (using your fallacies again, this is called "non sequitur"). My reply about diseases/injuries was directed to the 'hunting' part, which would limit or eliminate your ability to get your food. With cyanobacteria this wouldn't be a problem, since the food would produce itself, basically.
About the medical care, that is another subject of discussion, but I agree that this is a very complicated scenario. Being ill in a forest alone is something complex to solve.

Still, about the food, a midterm would be to cultivate your plants and supplement with spirulina. This way you will have "real food", but with full nutritional profile (well, almost, the Vit.D would need to be provided by mushrooms).
>DOMES, MOTHAFUCKA!
Oh hey asukafag. Our last discussion about cars/energy was a good one. Let's keep on track here, I know you can do this.

Nanonymous No.12991 [D] >>13006 >>13049

> go to the doc for a $15 antibiotic prescription
Firstly antibiotics are old medicine. You know we stopped giving them to livestock and chickens for a reason. Secondly, what fucking percentage of the global population has access to $15 antibiotics now let alone in a world where antibiotics are no longer effective? It will cost me over 70USD to get an antibiotic prescription right now, in the future i wont even bother.. Modern antibiotics are expensive and require pre and pro biotics in order to be effective. the spiralinaonon is definitely onto something but i dont want to be sitting in a cave eating algae either. You will find me sleeping in a treehouse harvesting precipitation, eating birds and lizards.

Nanonymous No.13006 [D] >>13008

>>12979 (me)
>>12991
>sitting in a cave eating algae either
It's a cyanobacteria, not algae.
But I get your point, this is not for everybody. Humans seems to need contact with other beings, it's a natural pattern. Might be a projection from my part, but perhaps that's why most of us here are so damaged. We are lonely and even the thought of getting into a underground shelter eating cyanobacteria to survive, without no one to care about, elicit a disgusting psychological reaction.

About the antibiotics, I've previously suggested the use of mushrooms in >>12347 and >>12553 and they seem to have immunomodulating and antibiotic properties too:
https://www.sfgate.com/health/article/MEDICINE-Nature-s-Pharmacy-Mushroom-proponent-2850167.php

Nanonymous No.13008 [D] >>13012 >>13022

>>13006
You are welcome in my treehouse anytime, if you dont mind me borrowing a corner of your cave during weather events. It would be very much appreciated.

Nanonymous No.13012 [D]

>>13008
>tfw nano treehouse never
WHY

Nanonymous No.13021 [D][U][F]
File: d8db147a0339431f20b02fdd29e1ceab4e79ce383b958bc0d250d2db6cac5170.pdf (dl) (747.81 KiB)

>>12911
Well, if you'd prefer a random pdf from library genesis
http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=C64533486AF0AD3DDC14BE19E558F9F4

Nanonymous No.13022 [D]

>>13008
Talk to us about your treehouse nanon.

Nanonymous No.13049 [D][U][F] >>13071
File: e72c6ef54c63a26f69a6860e4a2569e72217364bcfefcd1ead53a46f4980b0b2.jpg (dl) (373.03 KiB)
>>12979
>I said you can't produce efficiently and alone the enough quantity of food with full nutrient profile using only plants
Irrelevant, since I never made that claim.
>You said humans have being doing it through history and you can 'supplement' from hunted animals
And small-scale animal husbandry. I said that, yes, because it's true. They have, and they are. People are doing it right now.
>I agreed, but pondered they did it in a community, not alone,
It can be done alone. An individual can feed himself from the land. A family can feed itself and other families. Communities can feed nations and armies.
>and that other variables might be on your way, like winter or other natural phenomena
White men can plan around "winter or other natural phenomena." They've been doing it for thousands of years.
>You can't, this is not a linear equation.
You can. It's true that with well-directed labor you can significantly increase the agricultural output per worker with more workers, but a single person can absolutely feed himself in the way I've laid out. This is not speculation. This is a fact. Again, people have always done it. People are doing it today.
>Vit.D would need to be provided by mushrooms
I kept calling you a nigger, in fine imageboard tradition, but I'm starting to wonder whether you really are a literal nigger. White men produce their own vitamin D. We use the sun. Good lord, man.
>Oh hey asukafag. Our last discussion about cars/energy was a good one.
I have no idea what you're babbling about.
>>12991
Are you posting from the year 2060? Plenty of common bacterial infections are still tractable to common, inexpensive antibiotics. The last time I had a bacterial infection was 2.5 years ago, a nasty respiratory infection. A ten day course of amoxicillin/clavulanic acid cleared it up quite effectively. Common antibiotics like that can be had from Walgreens for between $10 and $30 for a full course.

Yes, antibiotic resistance is increasing. Of course, it has been increasing since we started to use antibiotics. Hell, the first strains of MRSA were detected back in the 1960s, IIRC. But saying that we live
>in a world where antibiotics are no longer effective
is just completely out of touch with reality.

Nanonymous No.13070 [D][U][F]
File: b592f20b2f95f6b780b73cab20cec0f1509fc95a6bf07e0ab8ebdfe72cff4c09.jpg (dl) (214.04 KiB)
>13022
It needs to be in a dense spotted gum forest or something verging on rainforest with minimal insect infestation, good root structures and healthy foliage. The structure would be sprung and suspended, spanning many trunks with various trampoline podiums and suspended catwalks for hunting and gathering while leaping and bouncing through the canopy. Various smaller, branches would be configured with catchment cones, suitable for collecting rainwater and all creatures within the vicinty of the structure are considered food including small marsupials and reptiles.

I dont know how much water i can collect from shaking water from leaves into catchment cones. I will probably need to find a natural spring.

Nanonymous No.13071 [D]
>>13049
Oh fuck, its the reality police, im outta here...

Nanonymous No.13385 [D] >>13387
bump

sage sage No.13387 [D][U][F]
File: 9f9c3f5449ecb44b9f20e27fbc26ca64a3a26b84d366a604ba3485fb8d35fe4e.png (dl) (140.20 KiB)
>>13385
Why are you bumping? This thread should be self-sufficient.

Nanonymous No.13978 [D]
Necrobumping, because we should make overboard look great again.

Nanonymous No.14693 [D]
bump