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no Task Manager on linux Nanonymous No.8543 [D][U][F][S][L][A][C] >>8561 >>8571 >>8633
File: 220a59ebc9903947ecd5f9dcfde5967075fb3d86ea0b71c99cdeac230a1ad677.png (dl) (30.05 KiB)
>2019
>my stupid normie linux shit still doesn't have graphical Task Manager that I could run by pressing keyboard buttons or start menu entry
>something that Windows 95 or even 3.11 had
but I guess on linux Task Manager would be useless anyway, because on shit linux when one application hangs or you run out of physical ram, entire PC is locked and the only thing you can do is press restart button on your PC

Nanonymous No.8544 [D]
>screenshot
holy fuck windows 3.11 beats the shit out of nigger 2019 linux

Nanonymous No.8548 [D] >>8593
Ideally the task manager would show up when you ran out of memory instead of just hanging. That way the user could choose what program to kill to free enough memory to continue.

Nanonymous No.8549 [D][U][F] >>8593
File: 19f797e704c722c771bed7efbf6a462d00afb40af6e654959ed86a4cda29108f.png (dl) (14.89 KiB)
ps
top
htop
pick one.

Nanonymous No.8554 [D] >>8555 >>8593
>because on shit linux when one application hangs or you run out of physical ram
thats a fuken lie

t. did it multiple times, even without swap

also there are graphical task managers, though they seem to be bloat
sage for low quality bait

Nanonymous No.8555 [D] >>8556 >>8593
>the only thing you can do is press restart button on your PC
I've had some success in manually triggering the OOM killer by using SysRq + F. This requires you to have magic sysrqkey config enabled for your kernel.
>>8554
>thats a fuken lie
No, it has happened to me plenty of times and it sucks because I have to lose everything. If you are lucky you might be able to just leave the computer on overnight and hope the OOM finally kicks in. Unfortunately, sometimes that is not enough and you have to manually reset your computer.

Nanonymous No.8556 [D] >>8557 >>8593
>>8555
i dunno what nigger shit you do to your computer, but you have to try really hard to break the system to that degree
like sure, it can lag quite a bit on high i/o but i was literally not able to fuck my system so hard that it would hang on loonix, it just doesnt happen
also if you want to kill the process use kill/killall with -9 switch (it will send SIGKILL instead of the default SIGTERM)

Nanonymous No.8557 [D] >>8558 >>8559 >>8593
>>8556
It typically happens to me when I am compiling software in the background.
>Just kill the processes using too much memory
This works if you can catch it early. If you wait too long or are not at your computer then you might be out of luck. If you kill the compilation you may potentially have to start the whole entire thing over again. This is how all of the source based package managers I have used have worked.

Nanonymous No.8558 [D] >>8565 >>8593
>>8557
> It typically happens to me when I am compiling software in the background.
it probably just becomes very slow but doesnt actually hang.
it does use swap, right? the word of advice : dont compile large projects on systems with low memory. the i/o is pretty intense there and it could take hours upon hours to complete if you run out of ram
also killing process would help eventually. maybe its the thing that loonix build system is actually a recursive "make" call nightmare and basically you have to wait a bit before the build actually registers that it was killed especially if you run tasks in parallel
> This works if you can catch it early.
im even more sure it didnt actually hang now
also how the fuck is graphical tm supposed to help in this scenario anyway? also tbh i believe windows memory manager is even worse

Nanonymous No.8559 [D]
>>8557
also you could try using "UNIX nice" thing on your builds, its typically built in into build systems
im not sure it would help, but worth a try

Nanonymous No.8561 [D] >>8563 >>8564 >>8565 >>8593
>>8543
>entire PC is locked and the only thing you can do is press restart button on your PC
It is assumed you know what you're doing with Linux, and no one holds your hand.
Since you are detailing a problem in a graphical environment, the standard solution is to
-switch to a text only environment Ctrl+Alt+1 (or any number 1 to 6) WAIT! Before you press them and this disappears: Ctrl+Alt+7 brings you back to the graphical session.
-login in to the text-only session.
-kill the required process (pkill if you have it and know the program, or use top to monitor and find the rogue process)
-restart the window manager if necessary (pkill <window_manager_name> this will effectively look like a restart in some cases, but some background process can continue)
-logout after checking the graphical session is back up and running.(i.e. switch to graphical session, Ctrl+Alt+7 then switch back to the text session and logout. finally return to the graphical session and continue)

Nanonymous No.8563 [D] >>8564 >>8593
>>8561
Good advice but it's Ctrl+Alt+F1 (+F2, +F7 etc).
Also generally if system slows down because of swap it could become also very slow, but likely faster than waiting for an X terminal emulator to kick in.

Nanonymous No.8564 [D] >>8593
>>8563
>>8561
Yep, these. I almost never come to that point but if it happens it's basically always salvageable by this.

Nanonymous No.8565 [D] >>8566 >>8580 >>8593
>>8558
Yes, if you have enough swap you will avoid this problem until you do something large enough to need all of your swap. Ideally Linux should be able to kill a program once it notices that it is essentially stuck.
>im even more sure it didnt actually hang
By hang I mean the userspace is hanging. The kernel is still technically running, there just is not enough memory available for it to be able to make meaningful work.
>how is graphical tm supposed to help
I never suggested anything of the sort. For desktop usage instead of the OOM killer coming in and killing your programs it should show an interface to the user to allow them to choose what program to kill to free up memory. In a server setting it should just run the OOM killer earlier so it does not get stuck. I would rather have a service quickly restart than for all the services on the machine get locked up.
>>8561
Clearly you have not encountered this. When this happens you are unable to access a vtty. You Also if you are restarting your window manager you might as well restart your computer considering you will be killing all your programs that were started in your graphical environment.
You also have to use the function keys, not the number keys, for switching to a vtty

Nanonymous No.8566 [D] >>8593 >>8608
>>8565
i dunno, if i run out of actual virtual memory, my programs just crash
programs crashing should bring any build down eventually, since the exit codes will indicate errors
thats another reason why you shouldnt build with low memory, because generally there is no good way to indicate that some target produced the non-functional result, like a .o or something
also if something like 12 GB of memory isnt enough for you then you run some nigger shit and probably nobody can help you
>The kernel is still technically running, there just is not enough memory available for it to be able to make meaningful work.
i refuse to believe you cannot just run something like "su -c 'killall -9 make'" and be done with it
when a program on one retarded system ate up 16TB of virtual memory I was still able to open htop, look at it and kill it. it was laggy as shit though
>it should show an interface to the user to allow them to choose what program to kill to free up memory
are you braindead or what? that interface will take up memory, the memory you dont have (or have swapped out but you apparently cannot wait), the gui one especially, and if you cannot switch to linux virtual terminals, which are a direct kernel subsystem, probably nothing can help you
>if you are restarting your window manager you might as well restart your computer considering you will be killing all your programs
you wont
x session is not the same as window manager
though i dunno why that guy suggested it. it could probably solve some problems related to a wm directly, but not to actual separate programs
also you can run shell builds in tmux or something alike, which would make all terminal sessions persist until you kill tmux

Nanonymous No.8567 [D] >>8593
>still doesn't have graphical Task Manager that I could run by pressing keyboard buttons or start menu entry

>install htop
>press ctr+alt+f4
>log in
>run htop

I mean it doesnt look particularly pretty but it has never failed me. It works even better than windows because you can restart the graphical interface entirely due to how linux works

>run out of physical ram
If you have an issue with running out of ram, then just get more ram? Its not that expensive these days and even a fucking child can switch it out. Ive even went as far as to disable swap entirely as to not unnecessary cycle my SSD. I have 16gigs and never run out unless i go too nuts with virtualbox

You are either retarded or here to stir the pot

Nanonymous No.8568 [D]
>actual virtual memory
though probably "ram+swap" would be more correct to say

Nanonymous No.8569 [D]
>though i dunno why that guy suggested it
my brain lags today tho
obviously there are setups where exiting the wm will exit the x session

Nanonymous No.8570 [D]
>you run out of physical ram
Never happened to me since I discovered zram. Git gud, windows luser.

Nanonymous No.8571 [D]
>>8543
There's lxtask or qps (lxqt) with a simple look and "minimal" dependencies.

Nanonymous No.8573 [D]
Just install ksysguard and stop acting.

Nanonymous No.8580 [D] >>8588
>>8565
Clearly you haven't encountered this either, when really freezing (kernel related and pretty rare) you can't even press the restart button which sends an ACPI signal, you have to cut power entirely, which is not a problem when running on a CoW filesystem. Also better than killing the xsession or wm is viewing with who/w/finger/ps and then killall -t ${your tty}.

Nanonymous No.8588 [D]
>>8580
Sounds like a RAM issue. Increase SWAP size.
If it was a real computer, don't "cut power" (unplug cable im assuming), just hold power button till it shuts off.

Nanonymous No.8593 [D] >>8608 >>9277
>>8548
>Ideally the task manager would show up when you ran out of memory instead of just hanging.
Yes, but even better would be if stupid linux wouldn't run out of memory in first place. Windows never does. Windows puts old things into swap file BEFORE you run out of memory. The only way to run out of memory on Windows would be to run out of disk space, but even then, I am sure it won't lock your PC.

>>8549
>ps
>top
>htop
I dont know what those shit words mean.
I only know "ps". this is some command line dog shit that does nothing when you type "ps", it doesn't display any interface or ask which process to close. also how do you want to run terminal window to type "ps" when your linux PC is already frozen?
serious systems have GRAPHICAL, EASY TO USE task manager, run by clicking mouse or pressing buttons, the task manager starts fast under all circumstances and allow you to see which process is out of memory or CPU and allow you to close or pause it. Windows 3.11 had it, Windows 3.11 was released 1990. 30 year old Windows is superior to 0 year old Linux.

>>8554
>t. did it multiple times, even without swap
you didn't do shit, liar. other people in this thread confirm that it happens

>also there are graphical task managers, though they seem to be bloat
there aren't, clicked Ctrl+Alt+Delete and nothing happened. clicked Start menu (after restarting PC) and there was nothing called Task Manager

>>8555
>No, it has happened to me plenty of times and it sucks because I have to lose everything.
this never happens on windows. you can use 6GB of ram if you have 4GB of physical ram and your windows PC will never freeze
that's why professionals use serious operating system like Windows, so they don't lose their work for no reason at random moment
linux is used by basement dwellers that don't do any serious thing, they only type commands into black screen and watch anime & hentai

>If you are lucky you might be able to just leave the computer on overnight and hope the OOM finally kicks in. Unfortunately, sometimes that is not enough and you have to manually reset your computer.
or you can install professional operating system like Windows or Mac and not get any freezes and losing of your work

>>8556
>i dunno what nigger shit you do to your computer, but you have to try really hard to break the system to that degree
no nigger, all you need to do is to run any software, for example web browser, open tabs until you run out of ram
on windows it's impossible to freeze PC because of lack of ram, and thanks to windows swap management, before you run out of physical ram old and useless stuff will be put into swap file. linux nigger puts everything into ram then when run out of ram it freezes your PC or if you are lucky it kills random application (OOM killer) and destroys your work in that application

>also if you want to kill the process use kill/killall with -9 switch (it will send SIGKILL instead of the default SIGTERM)
first, nigger, I am not going to use some nigger commands, I want graphical high quality task manager with big kill/close button
second, nigger, you won't be able to use that "kill" command because you won't even run terminal window as everything is frozen, even mouse movement

>>8557
if you used professional OS, it would never happen

>>8558
>it probably just becomes very slow but doesnt actually hang.
wrong. it hangs, even mouse movement updates every 30 seconds, you cannot even click close on window

>it does use swap, right?
there is constant hdd activity but nothing happens, cannot move mouse, cannot close, cannot nothing
this is broken nigger toy OS for jobless niggers who masturbate to anime porn all day. they don't give a fuck if their anime locks, they can restart PC and masturbate again

>im even more sure it didnt actually hang now
you are wrong. it always hangs I can repeat it 100 times
1. Run loonix
2. Open web browser
3. Keep opening tabs
4. It seems to work but then one or two more tabs and it fully locks PC, even mouse doesn't move

>also how the fuck is graphical tm supposed to help in this scenario anyway?
it won't because linux is piece of shit. but serious OS should have graphical task manager where you select process and click Kill button. look at first picture in thread

>also tbh i believe windows memory manager is even worse
then you are retard who never used Windows. Windows memory manager is superior to every OS I have ever seen. Linux memory management is inferior to Windows 3.11
on Windows you can use 10GB ram when you have 5GB and it won't hang your PC and lose your work. because Windows values your work, your time, your life. Windows respects you

>>8561
>It is assumed you know what you're doing with Linux, and no one holds your hand.
I don't understand this sentence, nigger, what are you trying to say?
when using nigger linux I need to monitor ram usage with every click I do, because if I use all ram it will destroy my PC and my work? so it's OS for retarded niggers and cucks
superior quality professional Windows allows you to focus on your work and productivity, it manages shit things like memory for you. linux is just inferior toy that doesn't allow you to do basic things like web browsing

>-switch to a text only environment Ctrl+Alt+1
forget about it nigga. I install graphical OS so I will only click. I want to click on Task Manager

>>8563
>Also generally if system slows down because of swap it could become also very slow, but likely faster than waiting for an X terminal emulator to kick in.
or just install professional OS and not waste your time and life

>>8564
>Yep, these. I almost never come to that point but if it happens it's basically always salvageable by this.
it's not and you don't know shit

>>8565
>Ideally Linux should be able to kill a program once it notices that it is essentially stuck.
it shouldn't kill anything unless user allows it

>>8566
>are you braindead or what? that interface will take up memory, the memory you dont have
this memory should be reserved when you start PC

>>8567
>install htop
why should I install anything and how would I know what?
task manager is a necessary tool for any serious operating system. Windows 3.11 had it, you didn't had to install it was bundled, even though win 3.11 installer is 100+ times smaller than bloat malware linux installer
linux is useless retarded nigger if it doesn't have basic tools and easy way to run them

>If you have an issue with running out of ram, then just get more ram?
you can't install more ram because there is limit of slots in motherboard (especially laptop) and non ME/PSP motherboards cannot accept huge amount of ram
also why install more ram if windows work better than linux at half amount of ram? sounds like solution is to install windows, not more ram

also linux niggers dropped support for 32-bit, they push retarded 64-bit which only thing it does is raise ram usage by 25% for every software, without giving any advantage

Nanonymous No.8594 [D] >>8601 >>8608 >>8610
it's me again
>turns out the nigger who made this linux set it to not use swap
>ask internet how to make swap on linux
>instead of clicking a button and typing swap size you need to type 10 nigger commands
>one of the step from instruction is to open fstab and type some shit into it
>open graphical text editor
>click File, click Open
>browse to fstab and open it
>edit the file how the internet told you
>click Save
>nigger displays "Permission denied"
>turns out you need some "sudo" shit
>nigger application doesn't ask you for sudo password when saving file, you have to restart nigger application, with sudo command, then browse for nigger file and edit it again

linux niggers are the most brain damaged extreme cucks that I know on earth
how can someone accept something like this? what is wrong with niggers called "linux users"? and how can they even pretend this is how it should be?

Nanonymous No.8598 [D] >>8599 >>8604
dont't feed the unix hater troll nanons, it's first rule lol

fucking newfags

Nanonymous No.8599 [D]
>>8598
>he thinks pointing out extreme flaws of his shit toy OS is trolling
>or he just pretends it's trolling so he doesn't have to answer

Nanonymous No.8601 [D] >>8682
>>8594
>muh not enough graphical buttons
>muh I can't into command line
Ever heard of GParted?
Maybe even.....GParted Live? Knoppix!?
There's tools out there for this, stop looking for the quickest fix when thi quickest fix doesn't work.

sage sage No.8604 [D]
>>8598
For some reason we had too many newfags this last week. Oldfags should just ignore and not feed the trolls.

Nanonymous No.8605 [D] >>8607 >>8622
kind of unrelated, but i'm about to install a new system, i have 32GB of RAM on new PC, question is do i even need swap?

Nanonymous No.8607 [D]
>>8605
have you bought botnet PC with Intel Management Engine? what a loser

Nanonymous No.8608 [D] >>8622 >>8682
>>8566
>i refuse to believe you cannot just run something like "su -c 'killall -9 make'" and be done with it
There is no way to execute commands. Your best bet is SysRq+F.
>are you braindead or what? that interface will take up memory, the memory you dont have (or have swapped out but you apparently cannot wait)
Make the process manager come up before you run out of memory to even run it.
>the gui one especially
I never mentioned anything about gui. You could take inspiration from Genera, the operating system for Lisp machines, and try and load a graphical task manager if that fails to start run a very lightweight one.
>if you cannot switch to linux virtual terminals, which are a direct kernel subsystem, probably nothing can help you
The kernel would let you interface solely with this task manager instead of trying, and failing, to run your existing programs.
>x session is not the same as window manager
At least with the window manager I use, all of my programs are children of it.
>>8593
>there aren't, clicked Ctrl+Alt+Delete and nothing happened. clicked Start menu (after restarting PC) and there was nothing called Task Manager
These are not features of Linux. If you do not have a task manager in your start menu you will need to seek software yourself to use.
>or you can install professional operating system like Windows or Mac and not get any freezes and losing of your work
Windows Weenie
>>8594
It's a combination of you being incompetent and UNIX's garbage configuration system.

Nanonymous No.8610 [D] >>8632 >>8682
>>8594
>open graphical file editor
There was your first mistake. Use a real editor and it would have such options.

In general, GUIs are a second class citizen on linux. Coming from windows this may be surprising, but consider that users going the other way have even greater difficulty adjusting. Once you get used to the linux method, anything else will feel simply inferior. If you continue to go into every situation as if it's windows, you will continue to be disappointed.

Nanonymous No.8622 [D]
>>8608
>There is no way to execute commands.
this doesnt say much
did you try to actually hit ONLY ONE button combination then wait for like an hour?
i mean, it sounds pretty annoying but that is a way to deal with systems lagging deeply in swap
>Make the process manager come up before you run out of memory to even run it
yea, with predicting how much memory some process is going to eat. hint: there is no meaningful way to do that
though the idea of always running some sort of a kernelspace task manager sounds pretty nice. too bad no os i know of does that. windows certainly doesnt.
>instead of trying, and failing, to run your existing programs.
again, it probably doesnt fail here

>>8605
the answer to the question "how much swap space do i need" is "as much as you need". we dont predict your use case here. you wont need more than 32GB for interwebz browsing and porn watching, thats for sure (inb4 someone opens 1000000x1000000 pic in a browser to prove me wrong)

Nanonymous No.8632 [D] >>9297
>>8610
t. newfag who never had to dive into the abomination that termcap/terminfo and terminal emulation is in general
Terminal emulators are, we just need a terminal (see Plan 9's drawterm).

Nanonymous No.8633 [D]
>>8543
there's shit like htop nigger. you seem to not understand the concept of programs being separate entities n sheeit. gnome or whatever could easily have a hotkey to open a program that looks like task manager. actually fedora had this like 10 yeas ago last time i checked

Nanonymous No.8682 [D] >>8684
>>8601
>Ever heard of GParted?
>Maybe even.....GParted Live? Knoppix!?
GParted is a software for disk partitioning. why are you mentioning it?

>>8608
>These are not features of Linux. If you do not have a task manager in your start menu you will need to seek software yourself to use.
wrong, task manager is basic feature, it should already be installed and ready with two mouse clicks or keyboard presses. like you mentioned, it could even start manually when system is about to run out of memory
also, installing task manager in linux won't do anything as when linux runs out of physical memory it freezes so you won't be able to run it

>Windows Weenie
Linux is crap, not surprised it has <1% market share

>>8610
>Use a real editor and it would have such options.
command-line text editors are the most brain damaged unix nigger thing ever

>In general, GUIs are a second class citizen on linux.
that's because producing GUI requires design and effort. linux developers prefer to develop simple nigger scripts that waste 10 hours of your life to do what you could do in 1 hour with a GUI

>Once you get used to the linux method, anything else will feel simply inferior.
once you get brain damaged?

Nanonymous No.8684 [D] >>8722
>>8682
>GParted is a software for disk partitioning. why are you mentioning it?

Usually for a SWAP one makes a SWAP partition.

Nanonymous No.8722 [D] >>8885
>>8684
for Windows you don't, it automatically creates swap file and lets you change its size anytime you want with a GUI

person who is installing his PC/OS shouldn't need to know what a swap is, it should be created automatically when installing

sage sage No.8729 [D] >>8879
https://www.linux.com/tutorials/how-kill-process-command-line/
If you're too scared to use the command line stop trying to use linux, you wont get anywhere.

Nanonymous No.8879 [D]
>>8729
command line is for brain damaged niggers
linux software developers are too dumb to make a GUI

Nanonymous No.8885 [D]
>>8722
Then pick a distro where you don't, or properly configure the damn install wizard.
While many times a thing can be shit, don't default to that, as your own way of thinking can be even worse.

Nanonymous No.9151 [D] >>9152
>install ubuntu
problem solved retard!

Nanonymous No.9152 [D]
>>9151
>Install Spyware
if I wanted to go full spyware route I would install Windows 10

Nanonymous No.9277 [D] >>9279 >>9295
>>8593
Pretty nigger post tbh. You spent all that time typing your long ass post, when you could have just installed a few programs that solve your problem or at least made a webm of the issue so the discussion can move beyond no it didn't, yes it did.

>why should I install anything
The reason you need to install htop is that the task manager is developed by different people than the rest of the OS. You don't get a default program forced on you. If devs of your task manager did something you don't like, you could just switch to a different one.

ps and top usually come with the distro. Most people don't mind them because they are small and don't change (so won't unexpectedly add anti-features). Many distros also come with a GUI task manager, mine has gnome-system-manager (which the DE confusingly calls just "System Manager"). Of course if the DE is stuck you can't use gnome-system-manager, which is why people are recommending you switch to a TTY with Ctrl+Alt+F4 and use htop. Btw DEs usually run on Ctrl+Alt+F7, and you can launch them from any TTY with startx.

>and how would I know what?
This is a fair point and why I decided to reply to your otherwise worthless thread. One of the main benefits of Linux is control over your system. Without control, your OS can do very bad things like spy on you, and you can't stop it, sometimes you can't even know for sure what exactly it does. So comparing Linux to proprietary OS doesn't really make sense. Either you care about control, in which case proprietary isn't an option, so it's irrelevant how much better their UI is, or you don't care, in which case yes Windows or OSX will provide a better default GUI task manager. It's up to you to decide whether a better default task manager is worth losing control over your OS.

What's missing from Linux right now is a good, streamlined way of finding new software for a given task. Your options include:
>google "linux program to do task"
>look at archwiki list
>ask on /g/
>search reddit
>apt list | grep task

All are hit and miss.
>google (well, startpage) turns up mostly useless content farms
>archwiki has too many abandoned, unfinished me-too projects and is too arch-specific
>searching through your package repos has same problem
>shit like ubuntu software store is pure cancer
>/g/ will give superficial advice unless there happens to be an actively maintained /g/uide for it
>reddit is full of retards
>github will prevent you from seeing badgoy programs
>irc channels of your distro will invariably be full of retards who don't care about helping you
>stackoverflow bans recommendations now and their recommendations site is full of autists
>alternativeto.net is full of shills, cancer and very spotty with niche programs

As far as I know there's not a good Linux software curation project, but there should really be one. There are a few attempts, but they have the same discovery problem: None of them have staying power, so they rapidly get abandoned or cucked, and you must start over again and look for a new curator every so often.

What should be done is create a database that tries to list every Linux program in existence and be reasonably up-to-date and comprehensive. Every curation effort should be about adding columns/metadata to this database to filter by, instead of starting with a fresh database and adding rows (program entries). This way, when a curator stops caring, their work can be reused by future curators instead of them having to start from scratch. Moreover, the database itself stays in one place that everyone can keep coming to. Maybe eventually we can build some meta-recommender program that takes into account all curation attempts past and present.

As it is, we have a dysfunctional software ecosystem. Good new software can't easily get recognition, users can't easily find quality software, giant organizations dominate marketing and use that fuck users. The result is stagnation and users who stay in their own walled garden bubble instead of being encouraged to explore and learn the best that open source has to offer. Even devs are now becoming victims of this, as they keep reinventing the wheel because they're not aware of excellent tools that have already existed for years. Or they are evil and are trying to trick users who don't realize a better alternative exists.

Nanonymous No.9279 [D] >>9282
>>9277
that's a pretty long trollfeeding post tbh.
dumbass

> As it is, we have a dysfunctional software ecosystem
cathedral vs bazaar my man
with linux you pick bazaar

sage sage No.9280 [D][U][F]
File: 1876f68ac79993bd3693b8fe88a9368211d630d3448570dcfa66f50f13b1f624.webm (dl) (1.39 MiB)
>apt list | grep task
wut? RTFM

sudo apt search keyword
sudo apt show appname

sage for posting in AI bot thread.

Nanonymous No.9282 [D] >>9285 >>9295
>>9279
bazaar as a system is good, that's not the complaint. Problem is that the bazaar will not scale if your strategy for new users is "just figure everything out yourself like I did".

Nanonymous No.9285 [D] >>9289 >>9292
>>9282
>strategy for new users
why do we need a strategy for new users? Let 'em stay on fucking windows, for all I care.

Nanonymous No.9287 [D] >>9288 >>9289
Holy fuck, how did this thread get so many replies? This image board can't go to shit. It's all I have.
KsysGuard does everything Windows task manager does and more. I've been modifying latency with that shit for years. Literally figured it out minutes after installing my first baby's Linux distro.
Seriously, where is nanochan being advertised? Too many posts from mid-october to now reek of kiked /g/ & /tech/ for comfort.

Nanonymous No.9288 [D] >>9298
>>9287
KsysGuard is a userspace program. We are talking about Linux, the kernel.

Nanonymous No.9289 [D] >>9293 >>9298
>>9285
All devs were users once. Not all users will be devs, but for those that will be, helping the transition from consuming to contributing is a good thing.

>>9287
pigchan was kill, if you haven't heard.

Nanonymous No.9292 [D] >>9293
>>9285
Windows is too popular and by making linux more approachable, you are directly murdering windows.
I wanted to switch from windows for years but only did it like half a year ago because the linux felt too threatening to me. I kind of regret i didnt do it sooner but whatever at this point

Nanonymous No.9293 [D] >>9341
>>9289
The kinds of users that need to be constantly handheld are not the kinds of users likely to turn into devs. Windows users can turn into devs, when they realize the inherent limitations of their OS. Linux users who are only there because they don't want to pay for a license and who think they deserve everything to be handed to them will never become devs.

>>9292
Why would I want to kill windows? The moment that happens, linux becomes (further) infected with the crap they pass for software, and the screaming babies they pass for users.

All the big problems with linux software come from people trying to emulate windows, either because they are windows users themselves, or because they are trying to attract windows users. If all you're going to do is copy windows, then just stay there in the first place!

Nanonymous No.9295 [D]
>>9282
complaints in the last paragraph of >>9277 are related exactly to the bazaar system.
>Problem is that the bazaar will not scale if your strategy for new users is "just figure everything out yourself like I did"
nah, the bazaar will just scale (does in fact scale right now) to the software system where user is spoonfed. it's simple. and it's not like it's bad. programs with good documentation, consistent look-and-feel and consistent behavior are GOOD. linux has the audio mess, the x11 which is horrendous (though it's documented kinda ok), also now it has systemd which spec is "whatever poettering feels like" and the linux kernel itself is a moving target with some efforts being made to make a consistent api, but just look at the device management system - they went from devfs to managing device files completely from userspace with udev, and later they added devtmpfs back. if that isnt a joke, i don't know what is. fuck loonies and fuck their bazaar.

Nanonymous No.9297 [D][U][F]
File: c32566ba742bbca42e136d8cf5e4d1868e6f0d8e9b413e27e20f1c02888a8a19.jpg (dl) (136.04 KiB)
>>8632
While I agree, a 2019 terminal would be some unusable XML insanity that manages to be slower and harder to use than straight up emulating old machines with software made by university students that's been hacked on for 30 years and somehow gets pozzed by some pointless web integration.

Nanonymous No.9298 [D] >>9326 >>9341
>>9288
No we're not. OP specifically specified how he has issue with Linux lacking graphical task managers. That's exactly what Ksysguard is: a graphical task manager.
>>9289
I guess I didn't realize how much 8chan had gone to shit before it was kill. Seriously, when the fuck are 8niggers going to migrate to Endchan? It has been 8chan but better in every since its inception.
>All devs were users once
This is a concept people on cucked, reddit-infested image boards have always failed to grasp. Newfag Windows users come in and become humiliated by posts lambasting they're OS, make the switch to Linux, and form superiority complexes afterwards. Eventually, they start applying it to everything. The next edgy thing is to think they're superior to those who can't program, then to those who use certain programing languages they don't like, and so on and so forth. My point is that, in they're arrogance and pig headedness, 4cucks and 8fags fail to recognize that their attributes that make them feel so superior accumulated over time, and that the avergage user is just like they were at the beginning. They're insecure that their skills aren't innate, so they shun those who don't have them.
TL;DR: The social web is becoming too much of a nuisance for comfort and I might live a more secluded life soon.

This is now a UNIXH888 THREAD Nanonymous No.9326 [D][U][F]
File: 229121324e1f7cb3045e5192de8b5a61ac01720e52e88312dc4b7ea172453af2.png (dl) (123.10 KiB)
On Gentoo it literally takes longer to log in every time you boot. Today it took something like 6 seconds

This is localhost.unknown_domain blah blah
localhost login: root
password: fuckoff
fuckoff
fuckoff
fuckoff
fuckoff
fuckoff
fuckoff
[6 seconds later]
>"koff" is not the correct password

Why the fuck, is it because of lastlog/last/wtmp or whatever the fuck?
$ last
[10 million lines later]
wtmp begins Thu Mar 14 18:06:14 2019

So you're literally not meant to use this shit on default install since it's configured wrong by default.

>>9298
endchan is unusable horse shit. it's impossible to post without using cucked browser tech

Nanonymous No.9341 [D] >>9342 >>9347 >>9349
>>9298
There's a lot of people on both extremes. There's faggots like Ubuntu/Gnome devs who try to spoonfeed the user and dumb down everything into a horrid mess. These create braindead users that never advance, but have a baby-bird mentality: Whenever they want their computer to do something better, they never try to learn, they just whine at the cuck devs who make a business out of pleasing bottom of the barrel users. The user gets encouraged *not to learn* and stay on the plantation.

Then you have people like >>9293 who act like any amount of help is spoonfeeding and will ruin Linux. They want everyone to learn everything alone from scratch purely on their own, by trial and error and maybe reading some manpages. No asking for help is allowed, because that's being a noob and helping is spoonfeeding. This is a great way to filter retards, but for the non-retards that remain, actually learning things in this way will be painfully slow. People asking each other for help is how large tasks are parallelized across a group of people, and without parallelism you get thousands of non-retarded noobs solving the same problems over and over. It takes them years to stop being noobs and start to actually contribute. That's how you get a stagnating software ecosystem.

OP in particular has a shit attitude, no argument there. But generally speaking a new user asking where the task manager is, is an opportunity to teach them about freedom of choice and how quality software can stand the test of time when not restricted by the commercial product lifecycle and planned obsolescence. If you say "fuck off nub gb2 windoze" you have wasted that opportunity. If you think that if the user is "worthy" he will eventually discover it for himself anyway, you are right, but it will take 100x longer and he might even give up altogether. If instead you had just pointed him to a useful resource to learn, next time he might try finding software himself instead of complaining it's not there by default. He might teach his friends how to be more self-sufficient. He might even be inspired to write his own programs, now that he believes he can do it too and not just "devs".

Point being, there's a big difference between spoonfeeding and teaching how to fish.

>The next edgy thing is to think they're superior to those who can't program
There's some kind of strange cycle of abuse in some places where noobs get yelled at for not being "hardcore" enough (=not having riced arch desktop pics), and they think getting better at tech means getting better at posturing about how hardcore you are. So they learn only the 1% of Linux that is good for desktop thread epeen points and the like, while skipping the 90% that enables productive work, and eventually they realize they don't even need to learn at all because they can just lie, repost and spout memes. At that point even if a knowledgeable person comes in and tries to contribute effortposts, everybody reads this as empty posturing and misses the point. This is how tech communities die, see 4/g/, reddit, even 8/tech/ to some extent.

Nanonymous No.9342 [D][U][F] >>9374
File: 131625243825e7735b3cc56080b96385789689af090fbfaf6ce1b3f865e4c7c2.png (dl) (8.06 KiB)
>>9341
I see your perspective, telling people exactly what to type doesn't weed out the necessary people. Helping someone so they don't have to spend the day searching for the meaning of some obscure error, may be benificial. I've been in that situation many times before and it really comes down to "how long will it take to understand what I need to do". It helps to document such things so as to help other people understand the problem and not have to retrace the entire discovery process. While doing such a task is a good learning experience, it is also a massive waste of time to do it for every instance of a problem.

Nanonymous No.9347 [D] >>9374
>>9341
There have been thousands of newbs that came before, who had the exact same problems as you, for which the answers are now well indexed by search engines. There are no noob questions that require asking for help on an imageboard and don't devolve into spoonfeeding.
Also, contrary to popular belief, power users don't know everything. I wanted to convert a file in vim into an html document (what with highlighting). Did you know that there's a built-in command to do precisely this (:TOhtml)? The vim tips wiki knew. I doubt any of the retards here would have known, without googling it themselves. Googling skill and a bit of scripting knowledge is what sets me apart from the idiots who just flashed ubuntu for the first time. Nothing more.

Nanonymous No.9349 [D]
>>9341
10/10 post.
The extremes of giving no help and giving all help are both the wrong approach.

Nanonymous No.9354 [D] >>9355 >>9356 >>9374
OP's update:

enabled a lot of swap on swap parition
doesn't change anything
when run out of RAM and SWAP it locks PC
linux is a confirmed toy for basement dwellers and niggers that fap to anime and don't do any serious tasks

Nanonymous No.9355 [D] >>9365
>>9354
Your failure to figure out how to use your own computer is nobody's fault but your own, OP. Go away and don't come back.

Nanonymous No.9356 [D] >>9365
>>9354
- How much swap space do you have? Should be at least a couple GB
- Buy and install more RAM if possible
- Eliminate the program that wastes your RAM if possible

Nanonymous No.9365 [D] >>9368
>>9355
it's a failure of shit operating system. you have to monitor memory usage on every tab you open, if you don't this shit will lock and destroy your work
there are zero reasons why OS should freeze when run out of memory

>>9356
>- How much swap space do you have? Should be at least a couple GB
a lot. I keep increasing it but eventually this shit freezes again

>- Buy and install more RAM if possible
not possible because of limitations

>- Eliminate the program that wastes your RAM if possible
so eliminate web browser. how do I use internet then?

Nanonymous No.9368 [D] >>9373
>>9365
>a lot. I keep increasing it but eventually this shit freezes again
Then maybe that's not the problem.

>not possible because of limitations
OK.

>so eliminate web browser. how do I use internet then?
Another web browser that is better. Can you install ungoogled-chromium or palemoon? Do they have the same problem as firefox?

Maybe it can also help if you change the linux you use. Some linuxes are heavy, some are light.

Nanonymous No.9369 [D]
btw i decided to look this shit up and i found something boiz
https://serverfault.com/questions/390623/how-do-i-prevent-linux-from-freezing-when-out-of-memory
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/159356

it suggests that the linux kernel memory manager indeed fucks up a bit; it cannot call oom-killer correctly in some cases and with swap it starts paging out in some inefficient way
the first link has a link to some patch dealing with the second issue
the second link has a link to the memory_overcommit.cc program that helps to reproduce the oom-bug
i didnt try them myself because i dont want to freeze my system nor to recompile my kernel at the moment. it looks interesting though.

though tbh i found myself in similar situations with memory hoggers on windows. it just slows to a crawl and it could take minutes upon minutes to kill a bad process. on loonix i just dont run stupid shit without making sure it doesnt run out of memory while i'm away. also you shouldnt run contemporary browsers on systems with like 128MB RAM, it's unfortunate but its the way of things now.

Nanonymous No.9371 [D] >>9379
>128MB of RAM
WELL THERE'S THE FUCKING PROBLEM
HOW FUCKING OLD IS THIS FUCKING COMPUTER????
W T F
YOU TRIED RUNNING NEW AGE BULLSHIT ON A FUCKING 90s COMPUTER OF FUCKING COURSE ITS GONNA RUN SLOW AS SHIT
NOT FUCKING UNIX/LINUXs FAULT FOR FUCKING FUCKS SAKE, I MEAN HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!!

Nanonymous No.9374 [D] >>9398
>>9342
Yeah, the way I think of it this: For every n problems you encounter, let's say you find your own solutions for m of them, and the other n-m you basically look up. The difference between solving it yourself and looking it up is not really clearcut, but we can say that inductive/trial-error strategy dominates m, and deductive strategy dominates n-m.

Total number of problems encountered by q people will be q*n. If m=0, then they will need to do q*n work. Note that n scales with complexity of tech, and if we assume tech will become arbitrarily complex, one day q*n might exceed the total amount of work that can be done by all people. This will be the anti-singularity, when no progress is made because it takes a lifetime to catch up. By no progress, I mean in the FOSS community. Corporate avoids this issue by enforcing collaboration, so when FOSS reaches anti-singularity, proprietary software will rapidly outpace it and we will lose.

However, some problems will inevitably be encountered by multiple people as per the birthday problem. These problems are eligible to fall under m. Obviously a problem in m is much faster to solve, let's say k times faster. So if collaboration is efficient, q*n problem-work can be solved in q*m/k + q*(n-m). Note that k can scale with number of people, if they are disciplined about providing high quality documentation. Moreover, learning from high quality references can make people better problem solvers, so even q*(n-m) will be completed faster.

Question is, what is optimal ratio of m/n? I think it's something like 0.9, certainly not 0 or 0.1 (the case where nobody asks on forums and everyone solves everything themselves). If you are solving most problems yourself without getting help, you are not progressing fast enough to learn new insights, you're just re-doing the same things you already know. Imagine if you tried to learn math without any lectures or textbooks, but by deriving everything yourself - you would be lucky to even get past basic algebra by the end of your life.

>>9347
>for which the answers are now well indexed by search engines
Unfortunately, not anymore. 10 years ago this was absolutely true. Today the internet is overrun with content farms, site metadata is becoming worthless due to JS and other dynamic pages fucking with it, so there is no effective way of narrowing down results. If you want to be a conscientious user, you have the added problem of sites that are blank with JS blocked and cuckflare pages. Now that datamining is all the rage, a lot of sites are trying to require accounts (which also fucks with indexing). In the arms race between SEO and search engines, SEO once again has the upper hand just like back in the 90s right before Google turned the tide with Pagerank. Unfortunately now, instead of improving their algorithms, Google is cutting features (anyone remember Google Code?) and catering to dumber and dumber users.

Like you, I also know where to look to find information. But a lot of that knowledge was gained over a decade ago, back when the internet had far less trash and Google worked better. I learned the basics in a much easier environment. People starting from scratch today have a much steeper learning curve (I'm not talking about learning tech, but about learning learn tech), to the point it's just a wall and they give up.

So going back to my initial post, I don't think there is a stupid user problem or a spoonfeed problem. There is a resource discovery problem. The cause is specifically SEOs doing a great job and big search providers doing a shit job. The cause generally is lack of quality, well-known indexing of available information. Software is a special case of this: You can see that discovering quality new software is a non-trivial problem, exacerbated by the quantity of noise (crapware) flooding search results and lack of comprehensive, hacker-friendly databases of software. Most major sites aren't in the business of teaching you to fish, they want you to keep coming back and buying the fish with your data.

>>9354
Why don't you try making a new partition and install a fresh OS there, something like Ubuntu or Debian that comes with sane defaults (including swap)? Then you can install the browser there, and see with your own eyes that Linux itself can handle this use case easily, it's just some incorrect configuration in your current system that made it break.

Anyway, you don't need to insult people every other sentence. It only discourages them from wanting to help you. Your gambit of "if you don't solve my problem for me, that means you favorite OS is shit!" falls flat because people realize you're not the arbiter of their opinion of an OS. Moreover, it's disingenuous in that if Linux was so shit, you wouldn't be trying so hard to keep using it.

Nanonymous No.9379 [D] >>9397
>>9371
chillax bro im not the op
though 10 years ago that would work
now you just need at least 512 MB RAM, i think

Nanonymous No.9397 [D]
>>9379
There are a few OSs that could run on that, but there are many applications that would need to be averted. Something like Open-WRT could be installed or a minimalist Linux/BSD. Avoid compiling shit on it, try to use binaries only. Treat it more as an embedded system, because 128MB of RAM is about what some low-end SoC IoT devices have nowadays.

Nanonymous No.9398 [D][U][F]
File: 83bba19f554fea87676ad76e3563209364b83e6da4f3c79b070f62398f0d14a1.png (dl) (8.79 KiB)
>>9374
A big issue is the inability to filter out faggots trying to sell you shit. For example, if you type in a search for "laptop bios" and this is intended specifically for technical information, no intent to buy shit, just the use of the keyword "laptop" will poison the results with commercialization. This can be avoided to a certain degree by going to specific info-centric websites, but it defeats the purpose of using a search engine in the first place, which is supposed to prevent you from doing that.

Nanonymous No.9403 [D]
STOP BUMPING THIS SHIT THREAD REEEEEEEE
probably one of the worst threads on /g/ right now. Maybe even nano as a whole