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Bernd 01/05/2020 (Sun) 19:33:50 [Preview] No. 33810
>Hindus made this
How is it impossible to carve structures like this nowadays? Is time literally going faster now?

Bernd 01/05/2020 (Sun) 19:46:53 [Preview] No.33811 del
Is it impossible? I've never tried.
I think humanity is capable of doing it, but don't because no need, demand.

Bernd 01/05/2020 (Sun) 22:01:47 [Preview] No.33817 del
For a start, its sand stone, so easy to carve. Second they were paid by someone extremely rich and powerful who could affidavit to feed, clothe and shelter the carvers.

Bernd 01/05/2020 (Sun) 22:03:11 [Preview] No.33818 del
Fuck phone posting

Bernd 01/05/2020 (Sun) 23:10:48 [Preview] No.33823 del
People are lazy.

Bernd 01/06/2020 (Mon) 23:31:52 [Preview] No.33850 del
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I'm going to make this an old architecture/art thread just for simplicity.
What do old churches/religious art look like in your country? Pre-Reformation (considering the Reformation ended it with iconoclasm) art in Denmark, Norway, and Sweden is especially interesting as we developed our own artstyle compared to the continental Europeans, and that it depicts mostly apocrypha.

Bernd 01/06/2020 (Mon) 23:45:40 [Preview] No.33851 del
Here's some pics from Sankt Bends Kirke, a medieval church dating back to 1180. Including a painting of what it looked like 200 years ago, despite a renovation occuring since then it's not too different to what it looks like now meaning it was preserved quite well since then at least. You have a mix of continental (especially north Italian artstyle) and the style I listed. Some recurring symbolism actually includes the Fleur-de Lis.

Bernd 01/07/2020 (Tue) 07:04:02 [Preview] No.33855 del
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Oh-ho-ho. We have a couple of very nice Lutheran and/or Calvinist churches with painted ceiling. I'll look up some more, you'll see stuff you won't believe.

Bernd 01/07/2020 (Tue) 08:58:34 [Preview] No.33859 del
>What do old churches/religious art look like in your country?

Like Byzantine churches and art. Here is the one of the oldest survived churches: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_St._Sophia,_Novgorod

Bernd 01/07/2020 (Tue) 18:32:10 [Preview] No.33863 del
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I'm not sure how to translate this, by myself I would call it painted panel ceiling, but following Wikipedia articles a more precise term would be painted coffering, or not.
Here too, the churches were cleaned out by the followers of reformation. But in certain cases the wooden ceilings which were added below the vaults got painted decoration, sometimes with more sometimes with less artistic values, but definitely they are a curiosity.
Wooden panels were a natural medium for painting since the antiquity, but into the churches they found their way during the early renaissance I think (or at least a certain genre of them), and remained there. The east was always in a little delay so on the Hungary renaissance started bout the half of the 15th century and reached it's peek with the reformation. Here in the following centuries, reformed, Lutheran and Calvinist magnates were all influenced by the renaissance, they all preferred to appear as humanists, benefactors of artists and aspiring scientists ("scientists"?). So the painted panels took root, at least art historians believe that the source of origin is renaissance Italy.
However ecclesiatical art rarely enjoyed the support of the wealthy nobility, especially not small rural parsonages. Here the renaissance influence intertwined with the folklore and taste of the rural population. One very characteristic creation became these painted ceilings.
Decoration in churches were rarely l'art pour l'art, not in the previous Catholic world, since most believers weren't literate and they did not know latin, they got a considerable portion of their informations through the artistic productions of the churches, the frescos, the statues, the figural glass windows, etc. Probably these painted panels contained "messages" for the mass below. Some of these panels contains surprising depictions.

Let's see one example: the Calvinist church of Gyügye (in the north east corner of the Great Hungarian Plain)
The structure is mentioned for the first time in 1405 but it is sure it was standing for a while now. From it's Romanesque style they estimate it's date of building to the late 13th, early 14th century.
We know when the wooden ceiling was incorporated. one panel says the church was renovated in the last weeks of May, 1762 and the paintings was finished on October 12th, 1767. The work was financed by it's own pocket of the ecclesia.
All in all 81 panels decorates the ceiling, 56 in the nave, 25 in the sanctuary. 20 and 20 of them are figural. Their shape isn't regular, but close to rectangular.

Virtual Tour:
Runs faster in fullscreen.

Bernd 01/07/2020 (Tue) 18:32:56 [Preview] No.33864 del
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Bernd 01/07/2020 (Tue) 18:33:38 [Preview] No.33865 del
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Bernd 01/07/2020 (Tue) 18:41:05 [Preview] No.33866 del
I want to take a closer look of these paintings, also post some more from other temples, but I wanted to post something quick, so that's it for now.

Bernd 01/08/2020 (Wed) 19:44:35 [Preview] No.33890 del
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Bout 10 kms SE from Gyügye, there's another church on Csengersima which proudly bears the sibling ceiling of Gyügye's temple. They had another sister on Milota but only fragmented remains left there.
The church on Sima has no mentions in medieval times, none that left at least, but it's origin was traced back to the 12-13th centuries by archaeologists. It had to be restored about 2000, and this form is a mix between the old romanesque temple and the additions of the reformation (probably only the foundation is original, the bell tower for example was first built in 1761).
55 panels are on the ceiling, they were restored too, however the artists "corrected" some details unfortunately.

Bernd 01/08/2020 (Wed) 19:54:52 [Preview] No.33891 del
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Khm. 56...
It is almost sure that the same painter-carpenter made the ceiling who made Gyügye's. His work testifies of his astrological knowledge. Well in Hungarian ceiling is mennyezet and heaven is menny, so it is fitting that heavenly bodies painted there.
Oh one panel says that the ceiling was restored in 1973.

Bernd 01/08/2020 (Wed) 20:32:54 [Preview] No.33892 del
Probably because Religion isn't as influential as it was before, so there's less inspiration to make that kind of thing

Bernd 01/09/2020 (Thu) 18:26:31 [Preview] No.33915 del
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Painted panels on steroids.
Reformed church in Szenna (SE Hungary), built 1785, so it's shiny new basically, in style Hungarian art historians call "folk baroque". Now it's part of a skanzen (open-air museum).

Bernd 01/09/2020 (Thu) 18:30:14 [Preview] No.33916 del
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Bernd 01/09/2020 (Thu) 18:33:10 [Preview] No.33917 del
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Bernd 01/09/2020 (Thu) 18:33:59 [Preview] No.33918 del
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Bernd 01/09/2020 (Thu) 18:42:46 [Preview] No.33919 del
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I'm looking at these panels and while they have a greater artistic value, I prefer the more naive paintings the previous two temples. These are too detailed and it seems during this "step up" they lost the message, they don't give a spiritual nourishment, they are just decorative, nice to look at. Or I'm too blind to read them.
Also on Gyügye and Csengersima not one painting has that characteristic which is most likely the remains of the ancient Hungarian art style (I don't know any source beside that), when animals and plants are blended together, forms can belong both to animals and both of vegetation (leafs, flowers), and the artist decides what will be the final product. I'll return to this, and will give examples.

Bernd 01/09/2020 (Thu) 18:49:02 [Preview] No.33920 del
*SW Hungary

Bernd 01/09/2020 (Thu) 21:20:03 [Preview] No.33922 del
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That art looks like it's taken from stereotypical medieval illuminated manuscript or alchemic book. Pretty surprising for architectural decoration (although I'm not a good knower of western church art).

Bernd 01/09/2020 (Thu) 22:49:01 [Preview] No.33923 del
16th century churches are made in a very plain Portuguese Mannerism, they're not very impressive. Modest sizes and simple shapes all around.

Bernd 01/09/2020 (Thu) 23:09:25 [Preview] No.33928 del
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The true first church is known but all that's left of it are stones. It's marked with "D" in the drawing. It was built in 1503 by the Franciscans and abandoned after 1730.
This style was standard and continued to be used well into the 1700s, but the ones I posted are all from the early-mid 1500s. Few churches have survived from this period and some of them have been significantly changed under the influence of later architectural movements. Most of them are in a modest stretch of the coastal Northeast, where a handful were destroyed during the Dutch invasions and later rebuilt.

Bernd 01/10/2020 (Fri) 17:55:51 [Preview] No.33950 del
There could be all kinds of parallels all around the world. While I tried to translate painted panels I found picrel.

I have ambiguous feelings toward colonial architecture. I like the simplicity and these >>33926 small structures. On the other hand somehow they weird me out and look out of proportion or somehow wrong, maybe they are too angular or I dunno.

Looks big, I assume that was a complex with monastery, archives and such.

Bernd 01/10/2020 (Fri) 20:00:52 [Preview] No.33951 del
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And here comes the assburger.
We saw an example from the south western part of the country, now we go south east, deep into Erdély, into Székelyföld, to Erdőszentgyörgy.
A document from 1333 proves the church existed back then. They estimate the construction by 13-14th century, so it has similar age to the first two, but unlike them this was built in Gothic style. The most notable feature is the crypt of the Rhédey-gens, where sleeps her eternal dream the one Rhédey Klaudia, the grandmother of Queen consort Mary, wife of King George V of UK. Yes, they are Hungarian too... while everyone speculates about their Jewish origins... just as planned [rubs hands] Queen Mary financed the restoration of the temple twice, in the early 20th century.
The pulpit was sculpted in 1730. The panels were installed during the renovation of 1758-60, when the "crown" of the pulput was carved as well (I dunno the proper term). The first organ was donated in 1804, the new in 1927.

Bernd 01/10/2020 (Fri) 20:03:06 [Preview] No.33952 del
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Bernd 01/10/2020 (Fri) 20:07:45 [Preview] No.33953 del
Look at this. All well, almost geometrical shapes. Rounds and squares for those who enjoy their OCD. Checkerboards and tablecloth patterns. A couple of figurals (a CoA too) but that's it. I'd like to see some closeups on those red-white triangles. Looks like something out of an early video game from the 80s or something.

Bernd 01/11/2020 (Sat) 21:35:13 [Preview] No.33975 del
Let's stay a little in Székelyföld. This temple is at Énlaka, it's Unitarian. I dunno if it matters, but with the exception of Szenna - since it's built late -, all the churches I listed are oriented to the east: entrance on the west, sanctum on the east. This is the case here too (except they opened another door on the south too, and while there's a gate on the north, no doors to that direction - since the Sun doesn't shine from there). Built in the 15th century in gothic style (there was an earlier one right on the same site, some signs imply a date that might be earlier than the Mongol invasion), surrounded by walls like many Hungarian churches, but in some regions this is more frequent than others, in Székelyföld it is.

Bernd 01/11/2020 (Sat) 21:36:49 [Preview] No.33976 del
The painted coffering is from 1668. And one panel contains a rare finding, a script written in old Hungarian runes (rovásírás), by the painter. It says after denotes the Biblical source, Deut VI: "One is the God - Georgyius Musnai dako" (= diaconus/diakonos = deacon). In style Szenna is the most akin to these from those we've seen already.

Bernd 01/11/2020 (Sat) 21:38:27 [Preview] No.33977 del
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Bernd 01/11/2020 (Sat) 21:40:28 [Preview] No.33978 del
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We can look around virtually inside with the help of Google maps, someone photographed around and uploaded the images. It seems recently the panels were taken down, I hope for preservation.

Bernd 01/12/2020 (Sun) 00:48:41 [Preview] No.33986 del
There's something lacking about those tiles. Seen on their own they look like they'd fit more as kitchen than church decorations. But on >>33952 it's still not church-like but they fit with the bold colors.

Bernd 01/12/2020 (Sun) 07:58:13 [Preview] No.33987 del
I was very surprised by the dominating amount of blue in the building. Partially because brown is the most common color for church furniture, and partially because the blue gives Slavic vibe (I no idea if they frequently decorate stuff in Churches with blue).
Those geometrical shapes really don't fit into the generally planty theme seen elsewhere, with tendrils twining, leaves banding, flowers blossoming.

Bernd 01/12/2020 (Sun) 19:14:33 [Preview] No.34004 del
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I wanna turn back to Gyügye and/or Csengersima, and look at those panels, what's on them and why the painter made that way. This will come next week, I have some knowledge on this but I wanna dig into what's "official" first.
So today I'm gonna post one more example of the painted panels/coffering, from the seemingly endless line - cause a lot of churches have these.
This last one is also in Székelyföld, near to Csíkdelne, in fact this served as a church for three settlements, but it is within the administrative borders of this one, even tho it lays outside of the actual village (and the other two built their own churches since then).
First there was a Romanesque temple since the 13th century, later about 1450 a Gothic one was erected, similarly to Énlaka, and it also has a wall about. The decoration of the ceiling was painted in 1613 when they boarded up the vault of the nave. The wooden altar was consecrated in 1675. And well, here comes why this one is special, it belongs to the Roman Catholic Church and not to a reformed denomination. Well I say special because for me it was new, but maybe comparatively lots of Catholic temples have such in them I just don't know about it.

Bernd 01/12/2020 (Sun) 19:18:55 [Preview] No.34005 del
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From the over 100 panels almost all unique, only a couple have duplicates. I couldn't find photos in good resolution except of the centerpiece (királykazetta ~ king panel) with Mary and Jesus.
Here's a full view of the ceiling, the tiles are clickable.
Most aren't in too good condition, and today it is covered or taken down, not sure.

Bernd 01/15/2020 (Wed) 17:31:12 [Preview] No.34062 del
Ok, so I'm researching haha the official views on these painted panels, and while art history in general acknowledges that these very well can hold meanings and messages, these aren't just decorations but a media to convey a point to their audience, the art historians aren't bothered to go ahead and figure it out, beside the most obvious Biblical references. Or maybe someone did this recently (or does it nowadays who knows) but I've no source on this and would be too much of a hassle for our purpose.
Now I've a little more background story for these painted panels, and some data. It seems the first painted coffering of a church was ordered by a baron in 1503 and was ready by 1520, it was in Transylvania, at Gógánváralja. The work ofc deteriorated (pic #1) but judging by the reconstruction (pic #2) it had to be astonishing back in the day. Only in Transylvania* about hundred such ceiling followed - half of which exclusively plant-flower-art, half has human or animal figures too - in the next centuries with varying quality. As I mentioned earlier soon it became an outlet for folklore, painted by not artists, but simple craftsmen, usually those carpenters (Jesus himself was one) who built the ceiling itself (and other furniture of the temple). Most folk-artists worked freely, by their own intuition and talent, but some - as I found out - used templates, and were trained by the guild they were member of.
But painted ceilings have older origins, ofc, there was the church art, but these types of flat wooden ceilings were within the houses of the populace itself and they did painted it. Turns out while there might be renaissance influence, the custom and the folk-art itself has medieval origins. Except those houses were fallen victims of the decay so remains of such painted boards are rare. First the ceiling was divided only by the beams holding the weight of the boards and attic space, so decoration spread wide, later came the practice of dividing it into panels.
A place I read that painted panels are related to Protestant iconography. While there is Protestant art, even in churches (pic #3), calling it "iconography", sounds like a stretch to me.

*I'd just like to interject for a moment. What I'm referring to as Transylvania, is in fact, Partium/Transylvania/Banat, or as I've recently taken to calling it, Partium plus Transylvania plus Banat. Transylvania is not the only stolen clay unto itself, but rather another taken component of a variety of snatched areas, complementing parts of the Great Hungarian Plain and it's peripheral regions. (pic #4)

Bernd 01/15/2020 (Wed) 17:36:13 [Preview] No.34063 del
I didn't want to show another example but one article I browsed used some funny paintings as illustrations which might be more closely related to what our Russian friend wrote here: >>33922 and I had to collect a few.
Szilágylompért is also in "Transylvania" but it's on the Plain, pretty close to Gügye and Csengersima. The original temple was built about 1500, the paintings was made in 1778. The carpenter was very verbose, from the 172 panels he added captions to great many, in case someone misses what's on the panel. You can't. Don't miss the eye szem on pic #4 tho!
So here's a collection, some (the best) are watermarked, but couldn't get them otherwise. Sorry for that.

Bernd 01/15/2020 (Wed) 17:37:24 [Preview] No.34064 del
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Bernd 01/20/2020 (Mon) 19:50:35 [Preview] No.34159 del
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Ok. I'll return back to Gügye and Csengersima, but I only have the ceiling of Sima as a whole, here: >>33891 so I'll get the examples from there.
I started to make diagrams for the explanations, but that takes some time, and I dunno when I will finish. And to be honest I'm not sure I can give explanations understandable. I'll try.
But in the meantime I'm gonna post the most interesting panels of that particular ceiling. I mentioned the painter's astrological knowledge, I might misspoke since it's more of an astronomy (but for sure it isn't the vulgar astrology nowadays can be found on the pages of newspapers, magazines in the form of horoscopes) at this level on the level of folktales, folkballads, and folksongs it is more similar to astrology, I heard calling it "herder astrology"
Let's start with those panels which he labeled:
1. Sun
2. Moon
3. Wind (all right this isn't an astronomical object)
4. I would go ahead and guess this is Earth. Held by angels on it's four "corner". But this is my own speculation, no label here. There are at least one other panel I'm suspicious of, but that is more like a version of Virgo (maybe I'll return to this in the explanations). I wonder what was in the middle of this panel, it is missing, I dunno what happened.

Bernd 01/20/2020 (Mon) 19:53:26 [Preview] No.34160 del
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And now come the constellations of the zodiac.
1. Aries
2. Taurus
3. Gemini
4. Cancer

Bernd 01/20/2020 (Mon) 19:57:20 [Preview] No.34161 del
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5. Leo (I had to turn most /all?/ the cropped images of these panels, I might did it wrong in the case of this one)
6. Virgo
7. Libra
8. Scorpio

Bernd 01/20/2020 (Mon) 20:00:38 [Preview] No.34162 del
9. Sagittarius
10. Capricorn
11. Aquarius
12. Pisces (again, since all the others had to be turned around, I did it with this too, but might be needlessly)

Some of these are more obvious, but some are kinda obscure, this is why I thought some explanations are in order.

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