/kc/ - Krautchan

diaspora of krautchan unite

Posting mode: Reply

Check to confirm you're not a robot
Email
Subject
Comment
Password
Drawing x size canvas
File(s)

Remember to follow the rules

Max file size: 100.00 MB

Max files: 4

Max message length: 4096

Manage Board | Moderate Thread

Return | Catalog | Bottom

Expand All Images


Bernd 12/24/2018 (Mon) 16:30:19 [Preview] No. 21518
Let's post something more substantial, we're gonna read about a crime for Christmas.
The crime is the murder of duke Béla, ruler of Macsó and Bosnia, at that time (13th century) parts of the Kingdom of Hungary.

The idea was given by an article in this blog:
https://mttmuzeum.blog.hu/2018/12/17/80_ev_utan_kerultek_elo_az_arpad-hazi_herceg_elveszettnek_hitt_csontmaradvanyai
The historical background was presented very awfully so that's my own work as in I read some secondary sources and wrote the text below but for the stuff about the bones I used this article exclusively, I got most of the pictures from there too. At the end the author notes this article was based on another in an archaeological magazine.


Bernd 12/24/2018 (Mon) 16:33:47 [Preview] No.21519 del
Who was he?
Was born sometimes in the decade after 1243 and was killed in 1272 November. He was ofc a royal descent.
He was a relative of the Árpád dynasty via his mother, Anna, who was the daughter of king Béla IV.
His father was Rostislav from the Rurikids who himself had a very action packed life.
Rostislav was the prince of Halych (the III. with that name), Novgorod, Lutsk, and Chernigov. Then after he lost everything but the claim - thanks to his father-in-law, king Béla - Ban of Slavonia, then Duke of Macsó. Later he could form some claim to the Bulgarian throne, he was backed by both king Béla and his son István V but at that time the tzardom was contested by many claimants and his death prevented further ambitions. His lands (Macsó and Bosznia) were divided between his sons, and with the death of the older, Michael, the younger, Béla, united them again.
As an administrative unit in our Kingdom those lands served as defense for the frontiers and a staging area for southern campaigns. Three rivers posed as it's borders: in the west the Drina, north the Sava, east the Kolubara. The southern limits always changed with the ever changing situation. Those who ruled of these lands were one of the key figures in Hungary's politics and military, it isn't a wonder he played important parts in certain events which then led to his death.


Bernd 12/24/2018 (Mon) 16:34:16 [Preview] No.21520 del
King Béla started to groom his first born son, István (who was an only son for a long time), into a king very early, from not long after the years of the Mongol invasion (1241-42). Then he shared the weight of ruling with him as a iunior rex in about the last decade of his life. However a split happened between the two kings, the old and the young, and a civil war broke out. By then, our hero Béla, son of Rastislav, was already a Ban in Macsó. He sided with his namesake, his grandfather, and led a body of his troops into battle where the senior king's army suffered a defeat, the duke of our story managed to escape but another leader, a very powerful lord, a certain Henrik of Kőszeg, from the gens Héder, Ban of Slavonia and literally the first oligarch in the country, fell into the hands of István.
After the death of king Béla, Henrik fled the country to Bohemia where Otakar II's wife, Kinigunda, was the daughter of the same Anna who gave birth to duke Béla. Not just Henrik fled, but other nobles and most notably the queen mother and Anna too. However duke Béla asked for and got pardon from the sole new king István V. And Indeed, soon on his side he went against the Czech king on a campaign when he attacked the country. The king took away some titles and many holdings of Henrik.
But soon István died, and his son, László IV was only ten years old who couldn't rule on his own right yet. His mother, Elizabeth, became the governor and guardian - in theory. There was only one adult male relative, duke Béla so he was considered as a candidate for those roles - in theory. In practice however two cliques of aristocratic families started to compete for the control over the child king, one was formed around the gens Csák, the other around the family of Kőszeg (the gens Héder) with the now returned Henrik at the helm.
The royal court frequently spent time on the Margaret Island in the middle of the Danube near Buda (there weren't any Budapest back then), where duke Béla's younger sister lived in the nunnery. Sometimes nobles visited the court there just as happened in the November of 1272. But then happened something else. Henrik accused Béla with treason, maybe citing that his relatives rule Bohemia and he wants the Hungarian Kingdom to himself, quarrel ensued then Henrik with his retainers attacked the duke and cut him into minced meat. Henrik suffered no blowback which illustrates well the weakness of the royal power.


Bernd 12/24/2018 (Mon) 16:36:01 [Preview] No.21521 del
(490.32 KB 1075x1548 004_skull_bw.jpg)
(170.23 KB 616x991 005_spine_bw.jpg)
(3.58 MB 4608x3456 006_bones.JPG)
(280.31 KB 600x721 007_skull_gypsum1.jpg)
His bones were found during an archaeological excavation on the island in 1915. Béla was buried in the Dominican monastery of the nuns by the will of his sister and the royal court. A biological anthropologist examined the bones and while he didn't make any publications he made notes and gave some data to a journalist for an article. For a long time everyone thought the skeleton was lost during WWII but they were in the Hungarian Natural History Museum among many tens of thousands other skellies but someone stumbled upon it this year. There's a little fly in the ointment: the skull with the jaw were lost, only a gypsum copy of the skull (but not the jaw) left. Some vertebrae are also missing.


Bernd 12/24/2018 (Mon) 16:38:23 [Preview] No.21522 del
(173.65 KB 600x440 008_skull_gypsum2.jpg)
(133.70 KB 600x377 009_left_arm_elbow.jpg)
(114.10 KB 600x400 010_right_femur.jpg)
According to the anthropologist mentioned above the duke suffered 23 wounds from swords, some which hit the head were lethal in themselves. His nose was cut off, both arms were slashed several times just as the left thigh. He was attacked from all sides, there were no sign of a duel.
The recent examination confirmed his observations, added some more and determined a possible scenario how the murder went down. First Béla was stabbed in the back with a dagger, between the 11th and 12th vertebrae, effectively disabling his legs. He fell to the ground and was surrounded and chopped to death. First he held his arms as a defense but after several slashes he couldn't do that anymore and they started to attack his head cutting out pieces from the skull and slitting it several places. Postmortem they cut his nose off and pierced his eyes out.

The crime left without a punishment, just another chapter in the tragic history of the House of Árpád.


Bernd 12/24/2018 (Mon) 23:18:36 [Preview] No.21537 del
Looks like Bela wasn't popular in his court, otherwise where were his guards and other people? People in that political position aren't stupid to allow competitors to attack them easily.


Bernd 12/25/2018 (Tue) 10:28:53 [Preview] No.21544 del
>>21537
Something is certainly amiss which we have no real information about.
Judging by his previous actions I have no reason to assume he really wanted to take over the country and he was a danger to the child king László.
The Árpáds might be we could also called it Turulids themselves were considered a sacred dynasty, kind of a holy cows liek the Merovings were in Franca. The country could only had a king from that dynasty, which title was inherited exclusively on the male line. Noone would have accepted the duke as a new king - unless in case of the death of all the Árpáds beside László, there was one more abroad, who finally became king as Andrew III, and was actually the last one. Maybe he had ambitions to be a governor but nevertheless back then he supported the senior king, but accepted the junior when the old died, which means he was devoted to keep the lawful order I believe he would supported the child king too.
The royal power continuously waned in the 13th century as the lords gained more and more lands and by the end certain aristocrats could rule over territories which were essentially countries on their own. Henrik of Kőszeg was the first among these oligarchs. They didn't know honor and fealty, they cared only about their own gains. Henrik had no qualms to give several castles of the country to Otakar when he decided he won't kneel before István V as duke Béla did, Henrik wasn't scrupulous when he helped Otakar to attack his lawful king. These type of guys just wished to push the country into such feudal anarchy which characterized the HRE at that time, very little central power, all the landholders are their own lord. Duke Béla however doesn't seemed to be like that.
One typical example of the weakness of royal power and lack of respect, that previously that year, one aristocrat kidnapped the heir of István V and held him captive in one of his castle. The king laid siege on the castle and during that he fell ill and died. Suddenly. How convenient. Here also can be suspected foul play.
Over the child king another noble league held influence, the queen mother was their pawn. I believe the court lacked in people who held lot of sympathy toward Béla. Tho he must had his own retainers bodyguards around, he sure didn't travel alone. Maybe he was ambushed leaving a place where he couldn't bring them with himself, or was accused of treason, and held down while his men tried to decide what to do, or they were also overpowered. There's zero information about the particularities
Sources say several men attacked him, one says it was Henrik alone, but another says that Henrik advised the attack and helped to execute it, the thirs says generally that they were Hungarian nobles. Based on the second we could assume the deed was planned beforehand, maybe they invited to the court where duke Béla could hope he'll be safe.
Who knows. We won't ever.


Bernd 12/25/2018 (Tue) 11:13:27 [Preview] No.21547 del
>>21544
>>21544
> The country could only had a king from that dynasty, which title was inherited exclusively on the male line
Only similar thing that comes to my mind is Göktürk Ashina tribe, as the legend suggests they are sons of a female sky/holy wolf.
Other than that, not spilling blood of noblesmen was generally aceppted sacred rule, as spilling blood of sacred person would offend the earth. Tradition continued even during the times of ottomans altough there is one exception.

By the way, wha are the reasons that Bela couldnt centralize the kingdom?


Bernd 12/25/2018 (Tue) 15:23:22 [Preview] No.21550 del
>>21547
I'm also interested in parallels and the origin.
As a parallel, I see one in the Merovings, supposedly the Carolings should be similar but I read little about them.
But the source I'm almost sure isn't the Franks. According to legend the progenitress of the dynasty was "visited" by the Turul in her dream like how Mary was visited by the Holy Spirit which is frequently depicted as a dove or Maya by the White Elephant so this is similar to the Ashina tribe you mentioned. They had a totemistic origin myth which can be the source of their respect but the establishment of it in practice with the strict rules of inheritance isn't necessarily going back to pagan times because there is one notable break which repeats the "exception under the rule" twice, or maybe three times in a way actually.

>wha are the reasons that Bela couldnt centralize the kingdom?
It's not a wise thing to piss against the wind.
By the reign of Béla IV's father, Andrew II, a stable nobility evolved. There were no oligarchs yet but as a societal stratum they were strong, influential enough to force him to issue a golden bull - called The Golden Bull - which had similar role to the English Magna Charta which preceded it only by 7 years, wow Hungary so progressive, truly we were First World back then. Andrew also excessively awarded lands to the clerics and nobles, lands which still were the most important source of income and soldiers. To the times of Béla the strength of royal power was noticeably weak enough for him to wish to change the trends. I should note here tho that still everyone had a healthy fear of him. For example he could order that the members of his privy council - the highest notability of the realm - mustn't sit in his presence and noone dared to say him fuck you. They hated him for such petty moves but noone said nothing. However traditionally this and reclaiming of the lands awarded by his father are considered as a reason leading to lose support against the Mongols and the disaster at Muhi. Frankly the time just past the point where the trend could have been turned around and centralize.
It wasn't just too late to centralize but it was also too early too.
With the economical progress, the growing international trade other income sources opened up but things just started to pick up, wasn't enough possibilities yet to exploit to the king's favor. Those times only came by the half of the 14th century. Maybe it could have been done little earlier but the weaker kings just couldn't do anything László IV was murdered by his own subjects, an unimaginable act in previous times.

For the map:
Darker green is the domains of the first Christian king, István I.
Lighter green is the areas where the estates were predominantly his.
The uncolored regions is a mixed bag frankly, some were almost empty due hydrographical reasons, but I think most were in the hands of the clergy (and not the nobility) as it seems these were organized around episcopal seats (little circles with crosses on top of them).
This map is little misleading as around the Carpathians were very sparsely populated and uninhabited regions.


Bernd 12/25/2018 (Tue) 16:50:06 [Preview] No.21552 del
>>21550
>>21550
>But the source I'm almost sure isn't the Franks. According to legend the progenitress of the dynasty was "visited" by the Turul in her dream.
Similar thing happened to founder of ottoman dynasty.

Osman I had a close relationship with a local religious leader of dervishes named Sheikh Edebali, whose daughter he married. A story emerged among later Ottoman writers to explain the relationship between the two men, in which Osman had a dream while staying in the Sheikh's house. The story appears in the late fifteenth-century chronicle of Aşıkpaşazade as follows:

He saw that a moon arose from the holy man's breast and came to sink in his own breast. A tree then sprouted from his navel and its shade compassed the world. Beneath this shade there were mountains, and streams flowed forth from the foot of each mountain. Some people drank from these running waters, others watered gardens, while yet others caused fountains to flow. When Osman awoke he told the story to the holy man, who said 'Osman, my son, congratulations, for God has given the imperial office to you and your descendants and my daughter Malhun shall be your wife.

Though this legend most likely created of him, not during his time as justification of his imperial ambitions.

> mustn't sit in his presence and noone dared to say him fuck you
he sounds like every tyrannical king, though you should know I dont use the word, tyrant in a bad way. I think they try to 'digest' the opposition and de-prestige them with such behaviour.


Bernd 12/25/2018 (Tue) 17:36:01 [Preview] No.21553 del
Hungarians are gypsies


Bernd 12/25/2018 (Tue) 17:52:21 [Preview] No.21554 del
>>21552
Sounds like that devious old Sheikh found a good way to get rid off of surplus daughters. Poor Osman.
Emese, the progenitress' dream kinda similar. A river sprung from her genitals which flooded foreign lands. The river represents the dynasty the foreign land is the Carpathian basin - as she dreamt this well before the Conquest, about 850 AD.
>Though this legend most likely created of him, not during his time as justification of his imperial ambitions.
Most likely.

>I think they try to 'digest' the opposition and de-prestige them with such behaviour.
Yeah, he hoped to restore the prestige of the kingship.

I guess the Ottoman court is the poster child of courtly intrigue. And juicy stories?


All this talk I'm tempted to play some CK2 or Mount&Blade thanks Turkey. Too bad both of them are a time sink.


Bernd 12/25/2018 (Tue) 18:23:21 [Preview] No.21556 del
>>21554
Well he wasnt really any sheikh, he was an ahi, guildsman who had good influence on Turks decided to settle down in cities though their methods were outdated.

>I guess the Ottoman court is the poster child of courtly intrigue. And juicy stories?
Well most of them are women in harem murdering each other and stuff to make sure their son take the throne. Story of cem sultan and şehzade mustafa is known ones.

Basically Cem Sultan is son of Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror he wants reforms and wants to get rid of decadent commanders or any person of influence in palace. But these people want to earn easy money not wanted to commit hardships of such responsibilities. Anyway instead of him, his decadent opium and booze addict brother took the throne, Cem sultan had to seek refuge in Vatican and druing that time most corrupt pope, the borgias helding the papal throne.

Anyway long story short, pope wanted to use him as leverage and want him to convert catholicism and retake istanbul and ottoman throne in the name of christendom. Then Cem sultan tells him to eat a dick and kys.

Şehzade Mustafa is son of Sultan Süleyman the >>>>Magnficicent. Long story short, süleyman falls in love with 2/10 in ukraine concubine that comes from ruthenia and that bitch plot him to kill and get suceed on that and make his retarded son padişah which died eventually during chasing concubines by stepping a soap and falling.

Now I remember why we don't highly regard of women.


Bernd 12/26/2018 (Wed) 03:28:59 [Preview] No.21564 del
>>21553
t. ROMAnia


Bernd 01/12/2019 (Sat) 12:04:50 [Preview] No.22287 del
(92.35 KB 800x545 demonstratio.jpg)
>>22201
I reply here coz it's offtopic in the news thread.
So the research of the Hungarian prehistory went like this.
First everyone thought evident that Hungarians were related to the Scythians and Huns, the Árpád dynasty is the descendant of Attila's family. Sources said that, tradition said that. Then in the 19th century the science of history evolved a lot and historians started to include the results of other sciences, newly emerged ones, chiefly two, archaeology and linguistics. Our historians also saw that sources ain't saying much about Hungarians in the pre-Conquest times, well that's why that part is called prehistory...
Anyway, archaeology can't really say about the recovered artifacts who used them, what was the ethnicity of those guys, but frankly as far as they can follow Hungarians by the findings it seems they always had the same typical steppe culture. But in the 19th century Hungarian archaeology was still walked in it's kid shoes and weren't many results to go on.
However linguistic was in the rise everywhere thanks to nationalism. Everyone and their grandmas searched for their ancestors with its help. We have a saying a nation lives in her language and researchers in all countries put an equation between language and ethnicity, and they thought a folk's origin can be solved by following linguistic clues where written sources are not available anymore.


cont Bernd 01/12/2019 (Sat) 12:05:48 [Preview] No.22288 del
(26.80 KB 300x300 homelands.jpg)
(29.63 KB 409x329 wandering.jpg)
>>22287
Hungarian, semi-Hungarian and foreign linguists saw two possible main origins for he Hungarian language (therefore Hungarian people) one was the Finnic road the other the Turkic. Sharp debate ensued, the so called Ugric-Turkic War, and those "won" who supported the Finno-Ugric side. It's all fine but these linguists decided they also have authority over the research of Hungarian history. And archaeology. Instead of supporting it they started commandeering. The decision came and Hungarian historians in relation of Hungarian prehistory had to ignore every source written just about every folk that was labeled as "Iranian" (like Scythians) or "Turkic" (like Huns) and the area of the search for the Hungarian ancient homeland was first restricted the aread bordered by the Carpathians, Baltics, West-Siberia, Khazakhstan, Ciscaucasia, Black Sea, then it was further limited to the region of Volga-Ural-Ob and Southern Russia. Those who wandered out of these limits - both in region and sources - were labled disparagingly as dreamers or harshly as pseudo-scientific - basically this is how the "guidelines" were took shape and were enforced - and were forced out of the scientific community and was silenced. The origin of the Hungarians (and not just the language) became dogmatically Finno-Ugric and only recent times (I think past 1995) started the "official" researchers open up and look into other sources and other relations.
Ofc there were many other ideas, hypotheses beside the Scytho-Hunnic origin (but usually linked to it), which had less foundation. There's almost no ethnicity on the Earth (except African ones, but I'm not entirely sure of this) which weren't named as a relative of ours, from the Jews to the Japanese but even further to Mayans. The ancient homeland was found everywhere, even on Mu and Atlantis. Also Sirius. Most of these ideas were come from people who didn't recieve historical (linguistical, archaeological) training, didn't have qualificaitons so it was very easy to push those among them who did have but had different ideas than the authoritive figures of science.


cont Bernd 01/12/2019 (Sat) 12:06:38 [Preview] No.22289 del
(315.95 KB 1138x1462 Atilla_fléau_de_dieu.jpg)
>>22288
Maybe the most notable hypotheses is the Sumerian connection. Since the Sumer is an agglutinative language I think it was natural consequence that some people picked it as a forerunner of Hungarian. Most often than not these people emigrated to America at one point, usually after 1945. Some say they have qualifications but here the scientific community doesn't accept it and I highly suspect the wider,foriegn neither (but those might don't even know about them). The Sumer connection is just rejected as above: dreamy or pseudo-scientific. On the other hand no qualified linguist took the task and examined the question, not one. Which is interesting because of noone would measured - for example - the Sanskrit to German, we wouldn't know about the relations between them. So why can't someone approved go and check if is it possible or not that the Hungarian and Sumer have some connection? If there is then go on, start more research, if none they could say "we told you" and move on (and pull out the research anyone starts the argument again). But they did not and do not. If one tries to say something liek "we wuz Huns" then they say "here come the Sumers".
I haven't read so much ad-hominems anywhere else ever than in publications about the Hungarian prehistory. What the Academics say I mentioned above, but the "other side" (as this side call themselves now "national") also goes on and calls out the researchers, naming them commies, anti-Hungarians, Hungarophobes, Habsburg-hirelings (or Jew-hirelings, this never goes out of fashion) and many other.
I guess in the beginning for the Hungarian nobility the "fish-greased" relatives in the backwater northeast like the insignificant Finns or the even less important Samoyeds were less appealing than the proud Scythians or the world-conquering Attila. On the other hand I heard somewhere that by prestige relatives in Skandinavia were a step up compared to Mongols (especially if we think of such associations as mongrels or mongoloidism, and Attila is/was generally widely hated in the west, and up to this day sometimes cited as a symbol of barbarism) and were more desirable and European.
One more thought for comparing the Sumer and Hungarian together. I've read in the unofficial official website of Hungarian linguists (nyest.hu) the opinion that comparing two languages and finding similarities (so even if the find many common stuff both in grammatics and vocabulary between Sumer and Hungarian) doesn't matter, probability matters and it's impossible that the two language belongs to the same family. But by then - comes my interjection - Hungarian most probably Indo-European as one only can find those all around and those are which our language had the most interactions with in the past 1000 years.


Bernd 01/12/2019 (Sat) 13:48:20 [Preview] No.22291 del
>>22289
We also have sumer hypothesis, due to some reasons you listed and their one of the deity name was similar to tengri.

I would claim proto-türks or proto-altaics passed through the area and affected ancient mesopotamia and ancient hattis a bit, but I wouldnt claim they are same people with us.

Also when you give a nation a couple centuries in this case more than a millenia, they eventually isolated, their culture, language evolves very differently from the integrated ones. I would claim that is the reason why in vast big plains of asia there are lots of isolated languages, the connection is eventually lost and they become a new thing, it's like tree branches. For example I wouldnt suprised if japanese language is connected with manchurian and korean and they eventually lose the connection, because they become very isolated in that island.

Another example many native americans probably developed their language while they still werent in america I suppose they lost connection in present day east russia.

Also as far as I know with enough isolation, the people also have different genetic mutations to adapt their region.


Bernd 01/12/2019 (Sat) 15:56:30 [Preview] No.22292 del
>>22289
>There's almost no ethnicity on the Earth (except African ones, but I'm not entirely sure of this) which weren't named as a relative of ours, from the Jews to the Japanese but even further to Mayans.
This reminds me of those all assburg cults that try to claim that they're jews. The examples I could think of are Native Americans, English puritans, Scots, Jamaicans, and even some Pakis all claiming certain tribes.


Bernd 01/13/2019 (Sun) 09:46:50 [Preview] No.22305 del
>>22291
Supposedly Leonard Woolley the excavator of Ur started some comparisons and found the Sumer is closest to Hungarian and then on the second place to Turkish. I couldn't confirm yet he did and said such thing, tho I didn't try.
>it's like tree branches.
That's not a good metaphor, it has a trap in it.
The family tree model is wrong. It suppose that as we go back in time languages were more homogeneous when in reality the opposite is true. Back when groups of people were more isolated (distance, geography - e.g. separated by valleys, mountain ranges, forests, deserts, rivers, other bodies of water) and in certain cases a group could have easier contact with another group with a different language, they had way more dialects. And as time and technology progressed, traveling became easier, as population grew, as schooling started, as printing was invented, as standardizations happened, as telecommunication was introduced etc. languages became more and more uniformed. There is separation as well, more clear distinctions what counts as another language what is just a different dialect.
See picrel as an example and with better explanation about the problem itself. It's from a book titled: Studies in the History and Language of the Sarmatians by Harmatta János (1970, Szeged). It's on libgen.

>>22292
To be frank, the idea was of a Jewish historian.


Once I skimmed some parts of a very interesting book, titled: Arvisurák (this isn't a Hungarian word, it supposedly means "truth sayings"). We have two volumes but it is supposed to be much longer. It's about the history of all kinds of steppe people, among them Hungarians ofc. Usually it's considered all bunch of nonsense or - in better cases and what I would categorize it - a tale. The interesting part is how it was written and by whom.
The author was a simple worker, I believe without any higher education, but the things which was written in there shows a deep knowledge about the most various topics in history, mythology and religion of Europe and Asia, which aren't necessarily available in a local library, especially not in the 1950's when the books were born. According to him, he got his infos from a Mansi shaman who was drafted into the Red Army and fought around Hungary in WWII when he met the author (who wasn't an author yet ofc) and who gained his infos by oral tradition from his predecessor shamans throughout generations and by shamanic dreams. I think the author thought himself to be a shaman as well.
In the composition of the text one can find a strong influence of the vocabulary of a communist state and society. I remember such phrases as "shamanic youth organization" and such.
One can have many "wow, what the fuck is this" moments during reading it.


Bernd 01/13/2019 (Sun) 10:10:16 [Preview] No.22307 del
>>22305
>trap in it
Well I didn't refer the modern times also I dont think it contradicts with what I said, dialects eventually become seperate language and might eventually lose it's connection with its root therebefore become one of the isolated languages.

>Supposedly Leonard Woolley the excavator of Ur started some comparisons and found the Sumer is closest to Hungarian and then on the second place to Turkish
Can you rephrase that? I'm not sure I get it.


Bernd 01/13/2019 (Sun) 10:19:24 [Preview] No.22308 del
>>22307
Ofc.
So supposedly he compared Sumer and several different languages, among them Turkish and Hungarian. And from all the languages the Hungarian seemed to be the closest with the most similarities to Sumer, then the next closest was the Turkish. So if he would give a list from the closest language to the least, the list would have started liek this:
1. Hungarian
2. Turkish
3. x
4. y
5. z
6. ...
...


Bernd 01/13/2019 (Sun) 10:30:12 [Preview] No.22309 del
>>22308
Understood, thanks.



Top | Return | Catalog | Post a reply